Ethanol could leave the world hungry

Cnn.com ^ | 8-16-06 | Lester Brown

[from occupied ga]

Ethanol, on the other hand, is a fuel, a stepping stone in the pathway between an energy source and cars

Interesting take on it. Why not hydrogen as the transfer medium and 200 new nucs as the power source then - that makes a lot more sense to me. I believe they're coming out with a hydrogen powered car that stores compressed H2 at 10,000 psi. Dunno how you refill the tank though.

[Oberon]

I'm all for nuke plants and hydrogen fuel, but hydrogen poses more technical problems (it's hard to handle), and getting the nuke plants built within the next half-century is probably a political impossibility.

[TKDietz]

"The continental US has enough coal in the ground to last 3 to 500 years. If we had spent all the time and effort that is going into ethanol production into coal gasification we would be swimming in $1.00 a gallon gas and diesel."

If we really could produce $1.00 a gallon gas and diesel through a coal gasification process don't you think we'd be doing that already on a grand scale? If it were that cheap to produce we'd be seeing billions in private investment flowing into the coal gasification industry. I don't know much about coal gasification and I'm not at all against it. I'm just thinking we'd see an awful lot of investment going into it and coal gasification plants going up everywhere if production costs were so low. The fact that coal gasification industry is not taking off in today's climate of high gasoline prices makes me suspect that gas prices as high as they are aren't high enough to make coal gasification profitable yet.

[from occupied ga]

The article in this thread is more optimistic about the assumptions, but still concludes that ethanol is not a good idea. What is it about disagreement on the practicality ethanol that gets you so vehement? There are much more effective alternatives than ethanol - I mentioned coal synfuel earlier. Unlike ethanol, coal synfuel actually has more energy in it than gasoline, and all of the energy to produce it comes from the coal itself.

in things like the energy used to produce a tractor that will work the farm, e

If you're farming "energy" you have to take this into account because it's one of the feeds. You somehow think that the energy to produce ethanol is free?

[P-40]

coal synfuel actually has more energy in it than gasoline

Coal mining is not exactly a desirable industry to have around, don't you think? Mercury aside, that is a fairly nasty industry in the best of cases.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Got it.

[P-40]

It is the Sierra club mentality that loves ethanol

That has not been my experience in recent years locally. When ethanol production was just a pipe dream, they were positive about it...now they associate it with sprawl and whatnot.

[TKDietz]

"If you really want energy independence ramp up coal synfuel and use more diesels. There is a steady supply of coal synfuel that works it's way into the diesel fuel supply, but no one seems to care about it since it's not a tree hugger thing."

Are you sure about that? "Coal synfuel" in the U.S. usually means solid fuels, not liquid fuels like diesel. The coal synfuel industry is heavily subsidized. They can mix some chemicals in plain coal and call it synfuel and get a tax credit per ton about equal to the cost of a ton of coal.

Here's a definition for coal synfuel I found: "Coal synfuel is coal-based solid fuel that has been processed by a coal synfuel plant; and coal-based fuels such as briquettes, pellets, or extrusions, which are formed from fresh or recycled coal and binding materials." http://www.eia.doe.gov/glossary/glossary_c.htm

Coal synfuel as it stands today is another subsidy scam. I honestly do not believe there is any coal gasification industry to speak of in this country today. If you have information to the contrary, please enlighten us all with it. Give us a link to information about the industry. I think what your going to find is that the entire coal synfuel industry is heavily subsidized and based around solid fuels, not coal converted into diesel or similar liquid fuels.

[RedMonqey]

We farm 580 arces in Middle Tennessee. We had this farm over 130 years and hope to continue it for another 130 years.

We have had corn, soybeans, hay, cattle, hogs, goat, and chickens but now we mostly have cattle. Black angus with a few angus/hereford mixed. Used to have tobacco but labour costs got too high.

We always had to rotate our crops and even then we left a few fields to lay fallow. Had good years and bad that's why basing national energy policy upon biomass from farms is not a good idea.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

I'm over as far east as Counce from time to time in my sales travel. Also into Memphis and down into Mississippi from there.
Wife's cousins operate her family farm in SW Iowa. They used to have livestock but now just corn and beans, beans and corn. On my mom's side, her father and uncle raised minks (zillions of them) in little cages. Guess this is more ranching than farming. I don't think you could find a nastier business than minks.

[P-40]

Had good years and bad that's why basing national energy policy upon biomass from farms is not a good idea.

So long as we don't consume the entire harvest in the same growing year, in other words, we store some it, I am not too worried. My preference would still be to have a system to can continue to operate on a petrol or a plant-based fuel source so we can use one if the other fails...or play one off against the other. Hopefully we will see some winter harvest also so everything is not all in one growing season.

[betsyross1776]

Hello, if you are hungry you will eat. During the war people where I lived started victory gardens. Yes, people do ge their hands dirty and do not depend on others to feed us.Some of the gardens were huge and substained a family a whole winter, and those potatos grown from your own ground are the best. My mother in law grew beans etc . I still do now. I grow my own herbs and can tomatoes. If you want to eat ,learn what your parents did , learn to grow it and it will grow. As a matter of fact my beans are better then you buy in the stores. Don't depend on others to do it for you do what we learned to do a long time ago. Grow it your self. OH , Yes , if you live in the city , you can grow vegetables on a deck.Just give it a try, it will be one of the best experiences of your life.

[RedMonqey]

You're the genius that keeps saying "grain" to avoid getting an inadvertant look at reality. If you don't like it, start your own drilling company and compete.

Doesn't matter whether it be grain, "biomass" or any plant matter that comes off a farm it depletes the nutrient base that good soil needs for a proper crop, whatever it it. Drain the soils of these nutrients and no more crops, no more ethanol.

Economically it would be great for farms like ours for the nation to be dependent on farm production . We would in fact replace drilling companies but it wouldn't be a good stable supply with the weather, pests disease etc. factored in and shortages would occur.

And "geniuses" like you would be bit#hing about conspiracies of rich farmers keeping fuel costs high.

Pick your poison

[Let's Roll]

Closely related to someone, somewhere might make a dime off of something - like selling deadfall picked up on national forest service land for firewood or the half dozen photos sold by an amateur photographer out of a show held at the local library ... "that doesn't seem right, our tax money paid for the library" whine, whine.

[P-40]

any plant matter that comes off a farm it depletes the nutrient base that good soil needs for a proper crop

Who fertilizes the forests? :)

It isn't always what you grow, it is how you grow it.

[RedMonqey]

So long as we don't consume the entire harvest in the same growing year, in other words, we store some it, I am not too worried.

In a prefect world with responsible people and a responsible public that sounds great. Harvests are unpredictable. I doubt we would have enough bumper crop years to cover in insatiable demand of fuel in this world.
Charges of hoarding,and whispers of conspiracies to keep fuel costs high would doom any such responsible measures.
In this America we want what we want and we want it yesterday.

My preference would still be to have a system to can continue to operate on a petrol or a plant-based fuel source so we can use one if the other fails...or play one off against the other.

Dividing the crops used to feed the world in order to top off it's fuel tank is not a viable sustainable situation. IMHO Use the Tar sands and oil shale that North America has in abundance.

[RedMonqey]

Who fertilizes the forests? :) It isn't always what you grow, it is how you grow it.

Completely different.

All the timber companies are interested in the main trunks and the rest is left to decompose and recirculate into the next harvest.

Nobody is harvesting all the branches, twigs, dead leaves, and sawdust left behind. In a true forest there are always lesser trees and ground growth that live and die and add to the soil until the trees mature and shut out the sunlight and these species die off..

Only the worst example of clear cutting on steepest of slopes doesn't leave enough coverage to let the next crop regrow. In about twenty years, depending upon the species.


Farms of fields planted with single row crops and anything else is either tilled under or hit with herbicides to kill them. Take the entire plant the grain and the waste product(stalks and leaves) and there goes some of the nutrients needed for futre harvests. Repeat this over the years and farms turn into dustbowls. (Remember the !920's and 30's?)

Sorry

[RedMonqey]

"I don't think you could find a nastier business than minks."


I agree. never raised them but have heard enough stories to put me off them.

[P-40]

Harvests are unpredictable.

Yes they are...and there are always companies that sit and wait with their nut until it is a good time to sell it. This is the same in any market with a product that can be stored.

[P-40]

Completely different.

Not really. It depends on the farming method employed. With the right crops in the right rotation, you get your yield and you get your biomass to till back under to provide nutrients for the next crop.