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Commander: Not many tanks harmed during war-
ynet ^ | 08.28.06 | Hanan Greenberg

Posted on 08/27/2006 9:32:50 PM PDT by Flavius

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To: Dick Vomer

That would be because you haven't downloaded the Microsoft-supported tool to view WMV on Mac - Flip4Mac:

(There used to be a Windows Media Player for Mac, but someone did it better, so Microsoft bought them.)

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/player/wmcomponents.mspx

Some of the Windows codecs (some AVI encoding) doesn't work out of the box, but there's a DIVX codec available from DIVX, and VLC helps play others:

http://www.divx.com/divx/mac/
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-macosx.html

Of course, I've had to download similar things for my work PC to get it to play videos, so that's nothing new.


61 posted on 08/28/2006 1:20:47 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Vinnie

Could have been a 40mm automatic grenade launcher.


62 posted on 08/28/2006 1:23:22 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

Good point about the old Soviet Union possibly having the sealift capacity, though I think they'd have thought twice with China sitting on their border.

As for being in charge of NATO, I'm surprised the Warsaw Pact didn't invade in 1977 with Carter in the White House. In fact, for his entire term, I'd have been sweating it out. Finally, after Vietnam, we were scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of morale, manpower, and materiel.

Flash forward 10 years, and the situation is reversed. Amazing what Ronald Reagan did in 8 short years, and how fast the Soviets fell apart.


63 posted on 08/28/2006 1:40:05 PM PDT by ABG(anybody but Gore) ("By the time I'm finished with you, you're gonna wish you felt this good again" - Jack Bauer)
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To: Words

Hey spin down man! I didn't call you any names and I know the M1-An is not invulnerable.

Just trying to make a point about what's manufactured in an Iranian armoury, and what's made in a hut in Iraq.


64 posted on 08/28/2006 1:47:16 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: Flavius

A tank might be disabled, taken out of action, and still be repairable, essentially not destroyed at all but just unavailable for that particular task at that time.


65 posted on 08/28/2006 1:50:36 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: Flavius

Hmmm...I thought the MSM said 30 tanks destroyed. Maybe they were being
a bit too optomistic (for their Hezbollah buddies).

I'll give the Merkava the "neatest turret" award. So sharp, it
looks like you could cut your hand on it.


66 posted on 08/28/2006 1:53:17 PM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA

Two words - shot traps.

Looks neat, but that's a bad vulnerability when going up against a larger MBT.


67 posted on 08/28/2006 1:56:33 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: ABG(anybody but Gore)

FYI, the Type 90 is designed to be deployed in a defensive, not offensive role (hence the lack of heavy side and top armor and their tradeoff for speed, mobility, and size, and the custom suspension optimized for use in the mountainous terrain of Japan).

IIRC, the operational philosophy behind the Type 90 is hit and run, ambush operations, and the like (sucker the enemy in, make him come to you, then blow him away and run like hell before his buddies come find you; repeat as needed) and it's perfectly suited for that sort of warfare


68 posted on 08/28/2006 2:02:22 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Words

I did some quick online research about the Cajone Eh hull loss. Here's what I can surmise.

The tank was not a hull loss at first. It was disabled by a well-aimed RPG that hit the tank in the power plant. Cajone Eh took an RPG-7 in its exhaust grill and was not operable. The crew evacuated, afterwhich the tank was ordered to be destroyed by the attacking force's commander so that it would not fall into enemy hands. They chucked an incidiary grenade into the hatch, then hit the tank with 2 M830A1 MPAT rounds and later 1 Maverick missile.

also --

Assume for argument's sake that the RPG-7 can reliably pierce M1's hull side. By definition, we'd expect most hits on the flanks penetrate. Yet, that isn't the case according to THUNDER RUN by D. Zucchino, where numerous RPGs were fired, many tanks hit, but only 1 (Cajone Eh) disabled by a shot to the egine from the rear. Plenty of hits at turret and hull side were recorded, but none penetrated. For example:

"Every single vehcile in the column (M1's and Bradley's) had been blistered by RPGs or recoiless rifle rounds and thousands of rounds of small arms, but everybody was intact and still moving. SOme of the RPGs had detonated on the gear and rucksacks stored on the tracks' external bustle racks, and now the stuff was on fire. Most of the crew just let it burn." This is briefly before Cajone Eh was hit. (17)

At another instance, the tank commaded by Sgt. R. Gaines was hit five times, at least one in the turret side: "Each grenade had rocked the big tank before bouncing off and exploding in the dirt along Highway 8. . . Somewhere just west of the spaghetti junction, Gaines heard a tremendous whump on the right side of the tank. The crew in the tank behind him saw an oratgne fireball erupt, and then a sray of gray smoke. An RPG had bounced off the tank's external smoke grenade storage box, then ripped into the smoke grenade launcher. The whole sid eof the tank was on fire . . . He grabbed a handheld fire extinguisher from inside the turret, leaned out of the commander's hatch, and sprayed the flames with a burst of white foam. To his amazement, the fire sputtered and died. The smoke grenades and some of the gear in the bustle racks had burned, but there was no damage to the tank itself." (46-47)

On page 49, Sgt. Booker's tank was hit twice by RPG's on the right side.

That's just three instances out of many in the book. Either the laws of physics didn't apply to the Rogue Column, or the RPG-7's weren't very effective at killing Abrams.

take a look here -- (source) http://www.tank-net.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t16310.html

This source says the USAF put two Mavericks intot he hull and the turret still stayed on. Cajone Eh was a hull loss becasue the US Army ordered it so.

http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?s=0853a96f085da08a688ffc4ba9ad9dda&showtopic=14679&st=20&p=284565&#entry284565

here is a pic of Cajone Eh AFTER the US tried to 'destroy' it ;-)


Compare this to pics we have all seen of t-72s with the turret blown off etc etc.

http://www.defense-update.com/images/M-1A1-destroyed.jpg

Enjoy


69 posted on 08/28/2006 2:09:08 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: Spktyr
thanks it works.... as usual

just needed a little guidance

70 posted on 08/28/2006 3:05:44 PM PDT by Dick Vomer (liberals suck......... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.)
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To: Blueflag

It's questionable if even the very latest RPG-29 would be able to damage an M1A2.

The M1 (no A) was originally designed to be proof against the RPG-7, and the designers were largely successful in doing so. (Thus giving even more nightmares to Soviet weapons designers when they realized that not only did the M1 have a longer range, but even if Soviet infantry should be able to sneak into the dead zone of the tank, they didn't have any effective weapons against it.) The golden BB theory is alive and well, though...


71 posted on 08/28/2006 3:25:14 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: ABG(anybody but Gore)
"Neither China or Russia have the amphibious capability to actually invade..."

True, but analyzing It in this way many countries don't need the army at all. I think that they keep them "just in case", so If international situation is getting worse, they will be able to build on this base a serious heavy land forces within a few years.
72 posted on 08/29/2006 6:27:01 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Spktyr
The Israeli tanks appear to have been KO'd by newer generation MANPAD/ TOW-like Russian Kornets (and similar) with dual/tandem warheads. That tanks were defeated repeatedly by FIXED infantry assets points to a lack of proper infantry and mounted Cav support from the remainder of IDF. The USARMY method of supporting tanks with Bradlys, Air-Cav and dismounted infantry was far more successful at (1) killing the enemy (2) destroying their stuff (3) securing territory occupied (4) advancing rapidly to objectives (5) disrupting enemy operations and capabilities (6) surprising the enemy / controlling the order of battle (7) surviving the firefights and (8) protecting human assets.

Aside from that, the Israelis and their tactics did just fine.

The Merkava was 'defeated' by bad battlefield tactics on the IDF side. The tank is not a 'bad' tank, but it ain't invulnerable, and neither is the Abrams.
73 posted on 08/30/2006 4:24:30 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: QQQQ

I totally agree with you QQQQ, every tank is designed for specific, missions. The M1 series of tanks were specifically made to defeat Soviet Bloc tanks on open battle fields. The Merk I believe is well suited for urban and close in battle. To pit one against the other would be unfeasible due to their unique roles. I am also a former tanker. U.S. 3rd Armored Cavalry.


74 posted on 04/02/2008 7:39:27 AM PDT by M1A1Tanker88012
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To: M1A1Tanker88012

Thank you.I was involved in the development of the Merkava 1.


75 posted on 04/02/2008 6:57:06 PM PDT by QQQQ
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