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To: WhoHuhWhat; se_ohio_young_conservative

As WHW points out, this issue has been discussed for thousands of years.

I would say it applies to anything, though, not just religion. How can you publicly profess something that violates the principles you claim to have? My point in another post was that even if these reporters were complete secularists and not Christian, by professing Islam they were accepting sharia and rejecting all of the principles of Western liberalism that they claim to believe (freedom, equality, etc.).

Young Conservative, you seem to think that beliefs have no consequences and no substance, hence it does not matter what you publicly profess. Why don't you give this matter an objective test: look at the results. Islam's ideal is theocracy, so are no functioning Islamic secular states (except for those that are run as police states and are pretty tenuous, such as Turkey), the condition of women in Islam is appalling, and Islam has a history of conquest and violence since its very beginning. Christianity, on the other hand, is not a political system, can operate in any political system that respects human rights, has at its heart the fundamental belief in equality and dignity of all human beings, and has a history of building hospitals and caring for lepers and the outcast. A newly converted Christian will go out and want to join a religious order and spend his days in prayer or tending the sick; a newly converted Muslim hits the internet to look for bomb recipes. There's a difference, and you have to admit that what one believes is important and does make a difference on a scale that goes beyond the merely personal.

Again, this is true in anything, not just religion. You obviously do not believe that truth exists; you believe that it is all the same. It's not, and at some point, we have to decide what is our sticking point; that is, what is the thing we cannot deny without sacrificing our integrity, our freedom and our human dignity. What would it be for you? Would you be willing to say anything to stay alive or even to avoid serious difficulties, such as loss of income or status? Or are there any beliefs and values you would refuse to deny, or some you would refuse to profess because they are so opposed to what you really believe?


1,209 posted on 08/29/2006 5:43:14 AM PDT by livius
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To: livius; All
As WHW points out, this issue has been discussed for thousands of years.

I would say it applies to anything, though, not just religion. How can you publicly profess something that violates the principles you claim to have? My point in another post was that even if these reporters were complete secularists and not Christian, by professing Islam they were accepting sharia and rejecting all of the principles of Western liberalism that they claim to believe (freedom, equality, etc.).

Young Conservative, you seem to think that beliefs have no consequences and no substance, hence it does not matter what you publicly profess. Why don't you give this matter an objective test: look at the results. Islam's ideal is theocracy, so are no functioning Islamic secular states (except for those that are run as police states and are pretty tenuous, such as Turkey), the condition of women in Islam is appalling, and Islam has a history of conquest and violence since its very beginning. Christianity, on the other hand, is not a political system, can operate in any political system that respects human rights, has at its heart the fundamental belief in equality and dignity of all human beings, and has a history of building hospitals and caring for lepers and the outcast. A newly converted Christian will go out and want to join a religious order and spend his days in prayer or tending the sick; a newly converted Muslim hits the internet to look for bomb recipes. There's a difference, and you have to admit that what one believes is important and does make a difference on a scale that goes beyond the merely personal.

Again, this is true in anything, not just religion. You obviously do not believe that truth exists; you believe that it is all the same. It's not, and at some point, we have to decide what is our sticking point; that is, what is the thing we cannot deny without sacrificing our integrity, our freedom and our human dignity. What would it be for you? Would you be willing to say anything to stay alive or even to avoid serious difficulties, such as loss of income or status? Or are there any beliefs and values you would refuse to deny, or some you would refuse to profess because they are so opposed to what you really believe?

Then why can't a Roman Catholic become king/queen of England?

Actually most of the problem lay within the root causes of the Protestant Reformation. Thumbnail sketch time ...

Henry VIII, sort of wanted a divorce but he also saw the wealth of the Church which he had no way to get his greedy, little paws on. Resolution, start a new church with monarchy as the head. More money for the crown.

Martin Luther, disgruntled employee, goes "whistleblower" on the Church, forces a diet of worms down the Teutonic gullet. Princes and low monarchy see the opportunity to get their grubby little paws on the Church's property and wealth, convert, make their vassals convert. Resolution, Martin Luther marries a trampy nun, Princes get loot, Germany gets new religion.

Swiss Canton's Taliban won't let John Calvin join. Calvin says, "Screw this!" you can be as good as you want, fate says only 120,000 of all humanity of all time get into Heaven. Resolution, people say, "If my behavior doesn't dictate my getting a cloud and harp, I'll do what I want."

Just remember this and here's the dirly, little secret your Evangelical friends won't tell you, Catholics believe themselves to be Christians but the Protestants don't think that!

1,214 posted on 08/29/2006 7:21:51 AM PDT by olde north church (Absolutism is ALWAYS wrong.)
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To: livius
I would hope that the unjust evil workings of Muslims all over the world would cause me to be so righteously angered if they had kidnapped me, that I would desire nothing more than to take their power away from them and put it where it belongs, in the hands of God - by refusing to cower and refusing to do whatever they wanted me to. I would hope that I would calmly tell them that I choose to trust my God above all else, above even my own life, and therefore no man can have control over me. Then I would tell them if they sawed my head off with a dull knife, it would hurt horribly, ..but it would end - unlike their eternity in hell if they don't forsake the lies that they believe. Then I would like to think that I would invite them to kill me because I believe in the one true God who is love, and not hatred, and that He could never condone their hateful, unjust acts, and I would rather die than say anything against Him - who saved me from evil. Then I will remind them that they had been lied to and there is no "Allah" who thrives on murder and injustice, for God is love and would forgive even them in the name of Christ if they turned from their evil ways, ..and that they have no power over me and if God allows it, I will die. Then I would like to think that I would lay my head down and call out to Jesus, until I'm gone.

Somehow, I don't think they'd enjoy killing me as much, if they did at all (hey-you never know). I do know they wouldn't have a very useful video of my beheading because I'd be yelling things like "God is love!" and "Take me home, Lord Jesus!". I don't think that would help their cause much, and could even hurt it. And if they didn't kill me, I could live without shame, knowing that I went to the brink trusting in my God and calling good, good, and evil, evil. That's what I really hope I would do, in the same position as these two men. I don't know if they are Christian, or if they believe in their hearts that God is real and was with them, even in that place. If they do believe in God, what must that do to their faith? They have proven to themselves that servants of Satan himself are to be feared and revered and that the reality of God is basically, well, a benign fantasy. I can't imagine what that would do to me. I think I'd rather die.

We've got to be as prepared to die as they claim to be, (in their sick, twisted minds) only for the right reasons. Think how proud my grown children would be, how they could hold their heads up! Think of the alternative.. fear, fear, fear! Enough to go around for everyone! Where's the victory? Where would the victory be? In escaping with one's life? For what? To be taken another day? Someone's got to stop being afraid of these messengers of Satan! I'm just saying I certainly hope I would behave that way in the face of these cowardly thugs!! I don't think anyone really knows until push comes to shove, but it's good to think on such things, or else then we'll all just be taken by surprise.

1,225 posted on 08/29/2006 2:16:08 PM PDT by GraceofGod
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