Posted on 08/10/2006 10:06:36 AM PDT by siunevada
Among the sillier accusations made by non-Christians about those they like to describe as ''fundies'' and ''Bible-thumpers'', is the notion that Christians only support Israel because they want to bring about the Apocalypse and kill them all. This is deeply and profoundly ignorant, right up there with the asinine ''most wars are caused by religion'' assertion of which maleducated atheists are so fond.
Now, there's no question Christians are rather more enthusiastic about the Jewish return to Israel than they have historically been about the Rothschild family's influence with the London Stock Exchange, but it is worth recalling that without Christian Zionists in positions of influence in the British Empire, Israel might never have come to pass in the first place. Thus, Christian interest in Israel is neither new nor unnatural.
The primary reason Christians are fascinated with Israel is that its existence lends support for the verity of Scripture, which is the doctrine of the faith. For many years, the absence of Israel was cited by non-Christians as proof that the Bible could not be true, in much the same way that the absence of any archeological evidence of the Assyrians and the Hittites was once considered testimony to Biblical inaccuracy.
But what in its absence is testimony against truth becomes supporting evidence for Biblical accuracy upon its appearance. Once the ruins of Nineveh and Hattusha were discovered, doubters were forced to concede that the Bible was a valid historical document more reliable than the historians of the day. Since 1948, its value as a predictive model has become apparent too, as with the exception of students in the Middle East and the American public schools, no one points to a globe and asks where Israel can be found anymore.
The non-Christian confusion stems from the events prophesied in the Revelation of St. John. There, Israel is predicted to be a primary player, and it is written that during that time, the Jews, having returned en masse to Israel, will finally come to recognize Jesus as their Messiah. Apparently it's the fact that he's returning as the conquering king that they were expecting the last time that will prove conclusive. Considering this, non-Christians have concluded that because the return of the Jews is a precursor to the second coming of Jesus Christ, Christians are therefore trying to summon Jesus Christ by a) supporting Israel against Islam, and, b) stockpiling Jews in Jerusalem.
Most Christians would plead guilty to (a). (And it is Islam, not Arabs, since Iran is Persian, not Arab, and is arguably Israel's most dangerous enemy at the moment. It's not pan-Islam, however, since Muslim Turkey has proven to be an Israeli ally of sorts). Islam has declared war on Christendom too, after all, and alliances often begin with a common enemy. But Christians don't support Israel against its enemies because they are concerned about it disappearing again, after all, Christians believe in an Almighty God, who, as the architect of human history, is perfectly capable of protecting His Chosen with or without our help. No, Christians primarily support Israel because God says in His Word that He will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse it. It's that simple. Most Christians don't question the imperative to bless Israel any more than they question ''thou shalt not kill.''
And certainly, if you compare the life of the average Israel-cursing Muslim with that of the Israel-blessing Christian, there would appear to be some truth to be found in that particular verse.
One of the quirkier things about non-Christian critics of Christianity is how they will take a verse or two from the Bible, build an uninformed interpretation around it, and then completely disregard every other verse that makes it clear that the interpretation is hopelessly incorrect. Just as the absurd argument that ''an atheist only believes in one less god'' ignores the first of the Ten Commandments as well as Psalm 82:1, Jesus' words in Matthew 24 make it clear that the concept of the Eschaton being immanentizeable is ridiculous.
For in that verse, it can be seen that the hour had already been chosen and was known to the Father two thousand years ago. And furthermore, Jesus tells his followers: "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other.''
So, one can only conclude that these eschaton enthusiasts are so clueless that they are actively working to bring about something that is already proceeding according to a fixed schedule, something that they don't realize will reward them with hatred, persecution and death. And while some bold Christians might seek the martyr's crown being awarded even today in the Dar al-Islam, in North Korea and in China, does that fit the description of the average Christian in America today?
No Christian is seeking to speed up the Apocalypse, because there isn't a Christian in the world who believes he can. Indeed, the most any Christian can do is to repeat the words of the author of Apocalisse when he writes ''Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.''
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Vox Day is a novelist and Christian libertarian. He is a member of the SFWA, Mensa and the Southern Baptist church, and has been down with Madden since 1992. Visit his Web log, Vox Popoli, for daily commentary and responses to reader email.
A Southern Baptist writing Italian? Oh my.
"Christians only support Israel because they want to bring about the Apocalypse and kill them all."
I've never heard that one before. It just proves that those who think that don't know the Bible, though.
This is SOOOOOOOO sweeeeeet! We've already won; just gotta play out the scenes.
It's more simple for me, my family were not able to do anything during to war to help stop the Nazis. I plan to make up for it against the Islamofacists now.
"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
That's my excuse and I've stated as much several times on this forum.
"Christians only support Israel because they want to bring about the Apocalypse and kill them all."
"I've never heard that one before. It just proves that those who think that don't know the Bible, though."
Turn on the TV, or listen to talk radio, that is a common response from non Republican Jews.
I have. Right here on FR.
My favorite example of this is "He who is without sin may cast the first stone." They always leave out the "Now go and sin no more" part.
Jesus Christ won when He was resurrected, having overcome all that hell could throw at Him. The eternal battle is finished. All that's left for man is to choose which team they will join.
Sort of reminds me of the "Jews are the cause of all wars" BS. They really must be gullible or hateful to believe it.
There are just innumerable problems with the logic, both Biblical and from a non-Biblical perspective.
The only reason I've ever heard a Christian minister cite as reason for supporting Israel is that the Bible plainly states that God will bless those who support Israel, and curse those who don't.
There is nothing any of us can do to bring Christ back sooner. He'll come when he's ready to come, no sooner, no later.
hehe, then meet dovber:
http://dovbear.blogspot.com/
Friday, August 04, 2006
Call President Bush!
I think it's important for Torah Jews to let the president know that he's advancing an opinion about Israel which does not coincide with the position expressed by HaRav Yosef Shalom Eliashiv, Israel's greatest living Rabbi.
The president, as is well known, won't tell Isrrel to limit its military operations. Rav Elyahiv, on the other hand, thinks Israel should listen to the other nations, and take steps to immediately bring about the end of the war, and preserve Jewish lives.
If you're a daas Torah type of Jew, you probably want to make sure the president is aware of Rav Elyoshiv's opinion. You can call him at (202) 456-1111, and tell him DovBear says hey.
PS: For the last few weeks Jon Stewart, a great American, has been runing clips of pius Christains predicting the imminent end of the world. Apparently, the idea that Israel's war with Lebanon will usher in the rapture is very popular among evenagelicals. Bush, as we all know, is a born-again believer who thinks God speaks through him. Could the president, on some level, be unwilling to ask Israel to restrain itself because he thinks a larger conflagaration is needed before Jesus can return? Might that explain the difference of opinion between the president and the Great Rabbi?
If you get through on the White House line, please ask him that, too.
posted by DovBear @ 11:00 AM
Most evangelical support for Israel is rather simple and very American: it is based on the fact that Israel is a decent country that is only trying to live in peace. But it is surrounded by barbarians who cut off innocent peoples's heads or push cripples off of cruise ships in their wheelchair because they are Jewish. That sticks in my craw as a Christian and as an American. That the buds of these particular babarians fly planes into the WTC does not help the popularity of the barbarians.
I also think that because of our grounding in scripture, we see nothing odd about Jews living in the Holy Land. It seems right.
If this is a precursor to Armageddon, so be it. If not, so be it. Regardless, Israel is a decent country whose people do not deserve to be slaughtered by barbarians.
"Could the president, on some level, be unwilling to ask Israel to restrain itself because he thinks a larger conflagaration is needed before Jesus can return?"
Well, dang... Why not just launch a world wide nuclear war? What's he waiting for? That'll bring Him back for sure.
"The only reason I've ever heard a Christian minister cite as reason for supporting Israel is that the Bible plainly states that God will bless those who support Israel, and curse those who don't."
Same here
If you believe this, then you have swallowed the Old Media cartoons of Evangelicals, hook, line and sinker. Jon Stewart is a hateful anti-Christian with a film editor. With an editor, you can make any person or group look stupid. I would be careful in using him as an authority on Evangelical Christians.
If you are interested in what the vast bulk of Evangelicals actually think about Israel, see my post 12 on this thread.
hehe, hold your horses!
dovber is (unintentionally) hilarious
Another interesting comment by DovBear:
"While I think it’s unethical for anyone to run a fake news photo, I have to ask: Is there really that much of a difference between the photo and the reality?"
Sort of reminds me of the Goebels line that if you tell a lie often enough, it becomes true.
Most Christians would plead guilty to (a)."
My only criticism of this article is this line. I don't think most CHristians believe they can "summon" Jesus. First, He is with the Christian at all times. Second, He promises that where two or three are gathered, He is among them. Many Christians do see that Israel's return to the land as a nation is among the final signs prior to Christ's return. God promises that when Israel returns as a nation, it will never be removed again. So, if people really wanted to bring on the Apocalypse, they would support the removal of all Jews from the land. Oh, that's right, it has been prophecied in the Bible that the world will attempt to do exactly that...but it will be after all Christians are in Heaven for seven years.
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