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To: caver
I wonder why Horowitz is so convinced though? Does he think we are finally succumbing to the liberals?

I also think the west, including the US, will eventually lose this war a bit at a time over a long period of time. I think it will be several more decades, if ever, before Islam completely takes over the US. But Europe is much more vulnerable to Islam, and I think it will come under Islamic rule sometime in the next couple of decades. An Islamic Europe armed with nuclear weapons and ICBMs could have it's way with a peace-at-any-price US unless the prevailing American aversion to inflicting or taking casualties is overcome.

The western democracies have become so adverse to both taking and inflicting casualties, either military or civilian, that we can't effectively fight a war anymore. It's estimated that Allied bombing and shelling during the overall D-Day invasion period resulted in the deaths of 10,000 French civilians. Today the media would make those casualties such an issue that the US government wouldn't allow our military to even consider another such an invasion. OTOH Islam has no qualms whatsoever about killing civilians of either side whether they be babies or grandmothers, and they have no qualms about sacrificing their own children as martyrs for Allah. In fact they actively encourage that practice.

I don't see how the west can win this war, and it is a war against all of western civilization, unless the American voters wake up and smell the coffee. War is a horrible thing, and in modern warfare there are almost always many more innocent civilian casualties than military casualties. But if we don't win this war western civilization is over and done with, and we will face a new Dark Age period of oppressive Islamic rule under Sharia law that will make the old post-Roman Empire Dark Ages look like an age of enlightenment and toleration. Think it can't happen? Almost 1-1/2 billion Muslims, soon to be armed with nuclear ICBMs btw, say you're wrong.

The most frustrating part to me of all this is that we could easily win this war and avoid the unimaginable disaster of an Islamic-governed western world if the American people would only let our military do the horrible things that would have to be done in order to win. Of course the innocent children of Islam didn't start this war, but neither did American or Israeli children and the responsibility for protecting them from Islamic aggression falls on the US and Israeli governments. I had hoped that Israeli voters and the governments they elect would not succumb to the anti-war, peace-at-any-price mindset that has virtually paralyzed the US and western Europe for the last 3 decades, but apparently they are now in the process of doing just that.

I don't like being this negative and pessimistic, so if some of you folks can change my mind with factual information please feel free to disagree with my gloomy outlook.

70 posted on 07/31/2006 8:09:37 AM PDT by epow (Proudly fighting on FR for truth , justice, and the last slice of leftover pizza since 1998)
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To: epow

Regrettably, I have to agree with you.


77 posted on 07/31/2006 9:08:53 AM PDT by caver (Yes, I did crawl out of a hole in the ground.)
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To: epow

Sir, you have said this better than I could ever could. You are right.


85 posted on 07/31/2006 11:52:26 AM PDT by Logical me (Oh, well!!!)
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To: epow
epow wrote:
I don't see how the west can win this war, and it is a war against all of western civilization, unless the American voters wake up and smell the coffee.

Great post, I wish I'd written it. I've put up several other postings saying much the same, in less eloquent language.

The War for Western Freedom can only be won if we outfight Islam on THEIR terms, not ours.

Islam - the creed, and the masses that live under its spell - remind me of the film, "The Terminator" (first one). There is a scene where the [lady] protaganist is warned [to the effect] that "he won't stop, he keeps coming, he doesn't care, he won't listen"..... and so on. The movie Terminator will keep trying to kill you until _HE_ is destroyed. Not negotiated with. Not defeated. Destroyed.

So it is with the growing threat to The West that Islam presents.

Islam sees this as "them or us". Stark. Plain and simple. And unchangeable (remember, the Quran is the unchangeable world of Allah, as handed down through his only true prophet, Mohammed).

There will be no negotiating, no "peace", no accomodation. There can ultimately be only one outcome.

What outcome is that?

- John

137 posted on 08/04/2006 8:17:39 AM PDT by Fishrrman
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