Posted on 07/17/2006 8:35:45 AM PDT by STD
Scout Snipers Break in New Rifles
Ft. A.P. Hill, VA. - Scout Snipers from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit's Battalion Landing Team, 2nd Bn., 2nd Marine Regiment, fired their new rifles for the first time on a range here today.
The BLT Marines will use the new MK-11 semi-automatic sniper rifle simultaneously alongside the bolt-action M40A3, a descendent of the Vietnam-era M40.
The rifle resembles an M-16 on first glance, and Sgt. Gerald V. Gavin, Scout Sniper Platoon commander, said the resemblance can benefit operations on today's urban battlefields.
Gavin said the distinct look of the M40A3 makes identifying a sniper in an infantry patrol easier. The MK-11 allows the sniper to better blend in with the infantry, making them less vulnerable.
Gavin said the semi-automatic action on the new rifle, as well as the addition of a suppressor system that reduces muzzle flash and report, make it a valuable addition to the inventory.
The MK-11 comes fitted with the Scout Sniper Day Scope (SSDS), which the Marine Corps also is attaching to its existing inventory of M40A3s.
Gavin said the new scope improves the snipers ability to engage targets, offering enhanced sighting ability and ease of use. "It's a great piece of glass," he said.
Lance Cpl. James K. Dagenhart agreed with Gavin's opinion of the MK-11, and said he prefers the MK-11.
"I like it because it's semi-auto, and I love the scope. . . the new scope is money," Dagenhart said.
The MK-11 weighs 18.29 pounds fully loaded with its two-pound suppressor attached, while the M40A3 weighs in at 18.5 fully loaded.
Both rifles fire the same 7.62 mm round, and the MK-11 is accurate up to 800 yards.
Gavin said he thinks the MK-11 is a great weapon, although he is still partial to his experience with the M40A3.
The BLT and Scout Snipers will continue to train with the MEU's Aviation and Logistics Combat Elements here until the end of the month. The training at Fort A.P. Hill is the MEU's first step in a six-month pre-deployment training process designed to merge the disparate elements of the MEU into a cohesive, rapid reaction force. The 26th MEU will continue to prepare for an early 2007 deployment in support of the Global War on Terrorism. Sound Off...What do you think? Join the discussion.
I like the occasional John C. Garand matches ... I 'fit in' instead of feeling like Julius Caesar in a Buck Rogers world.
There are only a few mods required to extract most of the capability out of a rack-grade AR. The cheap mods are to free float the barrel and replace the trigger with a match trigger (e.g. a Jewell), which together will run you a couple hundred bucks. These two mods will have you shooting sub-MOA all day if you use decent ammo and the barrel isn't total crap. The only other mod worth mentioning is installing a good match barrel, which can run some serious bucks. These three mods, plus good match ammo, you'll have a very competitive shooter. It won't be benchrest accurate, but only the benchrest guys would notice. One would have to drop a lot of dough on a bolt gun to compete with the accuracy. You can find a lot of information on accurizing ARs on the Internet, and reliably getting impressive accuracy out of it is not terribly hard -- the mods are easily done by any amateur home AR mechanic.
"Not only is the AR platform as accurate as any bolt gun, it is much easier to build and the useful life of the barrel is twice as long.
Now if they would issue it in 7.62."
You won't get any semi as accurate as a bolt gun... but it is easier to build and the barrel life is close to being the same as on a bolt gun if not a bit shorter. The AR10 is in .308 also known as 7.62x51mm.
Having built some very accurate semi's and some precision bolt guns in my day, there is no way to make a semi reliable and consistant while maintaining the kind of accuracy that a precision bolt action rifle like the M40 achieves.
Mike
I need to get a Garand. I have a very low number 03A3 that looks unissued and I shoot it a couple times a year but a mongrel Garand would be sweet....
A couple of years ago I fired an SR-25 that was made to resemble the Mk-11Mod0. It was interesting.
Much easier to shoot sub-MOA than an M14 but very intolerant of dirt.
I'm used to shooting heavier 45 cal rounds but I am curious what the specs of the round are.
Bullet weight?
Grains of powder?
is this 7.62 round a 39 or 54 grain version?
Take that, Alice! And your little white rabbit, too!
"there is no way to make a semi reliable and consistant while maintaining the kind of accuracy that a precision bolt action rifle like the M40 achieves."
If you are talking about M14s I'll agree with you but the AR platform is different. The advantages are simple - Threaded collar over threaded collar barrel attachment, no bedding to perfect or go bad, no gas piston/op rod harmonics to be concerned with. Building a sub minute AR is as simple as buying good parts and screwing them together. Anyone can do it.
The real difference between a bolt gun and a semi is in trigger control. A bolt gun allows the shooter to milk the trigger, constantly improving the sight picture until the rifle fires. A gas gun requires the shooter to pull more quickly and follow through by pinning the trigger back while the gun recoils. Failure to do this will often lead to doubles as the rifle recoils away from the trigger finger, resets, then runs into the finger again on it's way back forward. This is often seen on gas guns with rather light triggers and inexperienced operators.
One has to remember that the gas guns will be issued to "designated marksmen" and that it will be perfect for this role. The Corps will retain the outstanding M40 for "precision" work.
"Bullet weight?
Grains of powder?
is this 7.62 round a 39 or 54 grain version?"
Standard 7.62 NATO round. The ball round is a 147 grain spitzer boat tail FMJ at 2700 FPS. The "long range" round is the M852, a 168 grain HPBT at 2600 FPS. The "grains of powder" is impossible to answer as the factories get powder by the train car load. Every load has slightly different properties and the powder charge varies accordingly.
I think you are confused about "a 39 or 54 grain version". The two common Com-Bloc .30s have case lengths of 39 and 54 millimeters. The NATO round has a case length of 51 millimeters.
The standard issue accuratized ammo is M118LR. I don't know the weights and grains, you could look it up. Lake City makes it.
i dunno, my "match" grade AR doesn't shoot quite as well as my 700 (3/4"- AR, 1/2" 700). but both are out of the box sub moa.
"The standard issue accuratized ammo is M118LR"
Both are issued as the JAG determined that the Sierra HPBT is not designed to expand. By the way, the M118 load uses the same 173 gr FMJBT that was developed for use in the 30-06 National Match ammo, designated M72, about a hundred years ago. Only the Finnish D46 bullet, in use to this day in the 7.62x54r has been in use longer.
My confusion is because I am from the black powder end of shooting and the second number for cartridges is usually the grains of powder.
Thanks for your help. That sounds like a nice robust cartridge. Plenty of hitting power at 800 yards.
Actually one of the most accurate sniper rifles in the world is a semiauto: The H&K PSG-1. Bush #41 (Poppa Bush) banned it from importation despite the fact that few gangstas plunk down about ten grand for one of these to stick up a gas station....
Everybody needs a Garand!
-John Ragans, a good friend of mine who was a WWII Marine and proprietor of Ragans' Gun Shop in Statesboro GA.
Got mine from the CMP. 8~)
There is so much more to accuracy than just "buying the parts and slapping them together." Yes, the AR platform has a lot of advantages but having owned, shot and worked on literally hundreds of examples, I know that while the AR platform is desirable, it isn't all that.
To get an AR to an acceptable level of performance, you need to match the lower and the upper receivers, This is a LOT more than just slapping them together. It involves fitting the pieces so that there is a minimum of play but enough flex to prevent problems. Then you need the proper torque on the barrel nut and the correct indexing. Next you need to ensure the proper gas tap in the barrel. Too much or too little get you accuracy problems. Next you need to put a match grade crown on the barrel. What comes from most sources leaves a lot to be desired. Now that the basics are down, you need to get a GOOD trigger. You need to make sure that the barrel has a match grade chamber and that the lug face is trued. The bolt face needs to be trued and the bolt carrier balanced. The gas key alignment has to be checked and verified and the recoil buffer matched to the bolt and buffer tube.
There is more to the process but you get the general idea. The point is this. I shoot a LOT of long range stuff. I have never run across an AR of any caliber that can match a bolt gun at 1000 yards or more. The key difference isn't trigger, or anything like that. It's consistancy of lock up on the bolt to the breech face. A bolt gun is repeatable every time due to the tolorances involved. A semi auto needs looser tolorances to allow for the action to operate. This degrades accuracy and consistancy.
I'm not knocking the USMC for going with this gun, I think it is a good midlevel platform. I just hope they understand how to employ a suppressed weapon like this to the fullest of it's ability. In all of my years training LEO and military, I've yet to see any with the knowledge to properly use a suppressed weapon. There aren't many guys out there who know how to do it and fewer still who offer training on that subject. Most of the good ones won't deal with the US Government.
Mike
The trick is to ensure the vibration is repeatable, each and every time the trigger is pulled, to vibrate each and exactly the same way each and every time.
With the bolt gun, the only thing moving after ignition is the projectile, and the vibrating barrel, which in fact can be controlled by shape, flutes, size, free floating etc.
The semi auto has either a piston and connector rods etc (if piston powered), or if gas only, then the bolt itself, in both configurations, does unlock, slam back and then go forward to lock and load another round. Yes, the bullet has usually left the barrel by the time the motion is complete, but there is in fact motion while the bullet is traveling down the barrel, which will in fact effect the vibration frequency of the barrel, which then may be in a different place when the bullet exists, than the time before, or after. The gas port and tube also connect to the barrel, thereby changing the controlled vibration as well as shape when heated or heating.
True, the AR type platform is more accurate (provided it is chambered for .308) than other type of semi's, but the bolt gun is inherently more accurate, and the same time spent tweaking both will give the bolt gun superior accuracy.
That is why sniper rifles are in fact bolt guns, accurate, with a good shooter, well out to 800-1000 yds.
Will a gas gun compete? Yes, I have several, and they are tack drivers, but all things considered, including the ambient temperature, warm vs cold barrel, warm vs cold ammunition, and humidity, a finely tuned bolt gun with floated barrel and glass bedding will reach out and touch someone with minimal moa deviation with appreciable improved accuracy, with tighter groups, than a comparably tuned semi.
For more information, i would recommend reading "the ultimate sniper", by R. Plaster.
Regarding much easier to build:
let's see, barrel + bolt + receiver + stock (bedded) + trigger assembly.
The semi's I have have more parts than that, heck, they have more moving parts than that.
You used to be able to get a good deal from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Check 'em out.
This is my Rifle. There are many others like it, but this one is mine ...
I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were talking about Palma rifles firing custom ammo and shooting bullets that cost a buck apiece. I thought we were discussing designated marksman rifles shooting issued M118 or M852. My apologies.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.