Is a Nissan-Renault plan good for GM?

MSNBC ^ | July 7, 2006 | Roland Jones

[JamesP81]

General Motors’ board of directors has voted to start exploratory discussions with Nissan and Renault on a potential business alliance — a plan first proposed one week ago by Kirk Kerkorian, GM’s largest shareholder. But would a deal with the automakers help boost GM’s flagging fortunes?

[brownsfan]

"Morgan Stanley did a study a few years ago that found that Mercury was the most under-appreciated brand - that is, its dependability was significantly higher than public perception."

Oh, but Mercury, the theorectical upscale Ford, spent a lot of time and money making really bad cars to earn the poor quality perception. My brother had a Crown Vic. that was bleeding him dry. He took it to a mechanic and said, what do I do to keep from going broke on this thing? The mechanic said: Buy a Nissan Altima.

Mercury may be better now, but for a long time, they made real junk.

[eraser2005]

No doubts that they built junk at one time - and that is most likely why perception lags reality so badly.

But for the most part anything built in the mid 90s or later has held up well...

Buying a Nissan Altima now is a challenge - especially if you want an I-4. They had to stop selling them because they were burning oil BADLY and catching fire...

[1L]

What are your specific concerns with Ford? I think they've made a lot of junk in the last 20 years, but for the most part, its been their cars with front wheel drive and small V-6s or 4 cylinders. So, in a sense, I agree with you. However, their rear wheel drive V-8 and big V6 cars (anything over 3.8 liters) have performed well long term. Police departments have used and abused Ford cars now for decades.

If that fits your bill in all respects other than your concerns, which I fully understand, do a detailed investigation of Ford's reliability for the specific car you are getting. Who really cares if the '91 Taurus is a POS if you are buying a 'stang?

[JamesP81]

To be fair, the 4-cylinder Altima has had some issues, but the V6 is solid and quite fast. I get my advice on cars from my father, who started working on cars at the age of 14 and a trusted mechanic in my town. They say exactly the same thing about vehicles as far as reliability goes. Ford products and Chrysler products are generally the worst of the domestic brands, but beat European brands on reliability. Honda, Nissan, and Toyota exhibit the best reliability but the parts are costly. GM vehicles aren't as reliable as Toyota, Honda, and Nissan but the parts are very inexpensive and the vehicles are easy to work on. Mitsubishi Galants and Monteros are pretty good; 3rd generation Eclipses are death traps. 2nd generation Eclipses are better, despite their age. The 4th gen is too new to make a judgment. We'll wait a couple of years and see how they hold up. Also, the 3rd gen Eclipse doesn't handle like a sports car.

Now, these guys have been working on automobiles from since before I was born. I think I will seriously heed their advice, especially since they both say the same things consistently and also because what they say jives with what I find at consumer reports's website as well epinions.com, a web forum where people who have bought automobiles and other products relate their experiences. I will not take the advice of JD Power when the advice of people who work on cars and the advice of people who have owned them has differed so wildly.

[JamesP81]

If that fits your bill in all respects other than your concerns, which I fully understand, do a detailed investigation of Ford's reliability for the specific car you are getting. Who really cares if the '91 Taurus is a POS if you are buying a 'stang?

I will look into this more closely. It's true that with American brands the vehicle model is very important. Pontiac for example. The Sunfire is notoriously trouble-prone. However, the Bonneville and the Grand Prix are close to Toyota and Nissan on reliability. In any case, I will examine this further.

I just wish I had the money to afford one of the newer retro Mustangs. I can only spend about $10k on the vehicle I buy, and they just aren't old enough and used enough yet to be in that price range.

[eraser2005]

I'm sure your father is a fine mechanic.

But keep this in mind - Consumer Reports had the difference between a magnum and a 300 with v8s as greater than the difference between "better than average" and "worse than average". That is not statistically possible. Their sample sizes are simply too small to accurately measure the small differences in reliability. In addition, they let the owners themselves decide what a serious problem is. This is a huge flaw. I've known people who have needed complete engine rebuilds on Toyotas not consider it serious, while someone needing a $50 part on their Buick did.

I don't consider epinions a great source - its far too easy to do the equivalent of a "google bomb" on them. Even so, I see pretty high average scores for Fords.

Consider using msnautos or partsamerica - they use data from mechanics to report on vehicle reliability. Combine that with Consumer reports (taking theirs with a grain of salt considering the surveying faults and wide variation within mechanically identical vehicles) and JD Power -

I think you'll be amazed that there is a considerable amount of agreement. GM would not be the top domestic pick, although they do have some fine models. Nissan simply doesn't match up to Toyota or Honda. And Toyota and Honda have their problems, too...

Feel free to trust your father - as I said, I'm sure he's honest and trustworthy, but the experiences of one or two mechanics is not necessarily representative of the population as a whole.

[tuvals]

I just purchase my first non-American made car, a Nissan Altima and it is a well built auto and cost me under $18k with the Special Edition package. Try and find a GM automobile built with quality for that price? I will probably replace my Dodge Durango with a foreigh SUV when the time comes. When the Big Three make a product worth it's price I may consider it. Right now they are all gasping for air. Honda, Toyota, Nissan are a few foreigh automobiles that make the grade. As for the merger, I hope not as I think the quality of the auto's will be decimated once the American factory mind set grabs hold.

[JonH]

This is a simple "get good management" deal. GM has had a succession of weak CEO's and a guy like Carlos Ghosn might really turn around some of the dinosaur thinking. You can be sure GM's management will fight the deal!

[JonH]

This is a simple "get good management" deal. GM has had a succession of weak CEO's and a guy like Carlos Ghosn might really turn around some of the dinosaur thinking. You can be sure GM's management will fight the deal!

[webstersII]

"You obviously are unaware of all the Toyota recalls of late? You know why? Because the MSM is not only to the left politically, they are also anti-American auto industry."

I'm not unaware of that. I am just telling you that they think our products are inferior.

[Doohickey]

The Frogification of GM. Interesting. Here's Renault's contribution to mankind:

[Ruddles]

Renault and GM, made for each other. Chainsaw a Chevette and a Dauphine in half, swap halves. OO la la!

[JamesP81]

Feel free to trust your father - as I said, I'm sure he's honest and trustworthy, but the experiences of one or two mechanics is not necessarily representative of the population as a whole.

This is true enough. So much of the data in some of these things are subjective. A more accurate measure might be average money spent on maintenance per year. That's a stat I would really like to see because, ultimately, that's what it boils down to.

Another thing to consider is that not everyone takes good care of their vehicles either. I'm pretty much a fascist about doing preventative and scheduled maintenance on my vehicle, and it shows but not everyone does that.

One of the things I've always suspected about the Eclipse getting a bad rap on reliability is the fact that as a sports car, and one that people like to modify, many of them get bought and people drive the hell out of them. As a result, they have more maintenance problems earlier. It's hard to say how much of that vehicle's unreliability is due to poor engineering or the fact that they probably getting driven harder than other vehicles.

[PrkChps]

I actually owned one of these. It was a half-decent, cheap car until the gearbox turned to mush. Marketing of this car...Renault 5 everywhere else, LeCar here....was one of the worst mistakes ever made in US marketing. Of course, it was two years old when I bought it for $700.

[nyconse]

The 75.00 per hour union guy is a myth-doesn't exist. Union guys make their money on overtime which in modern GM is almost nonexistant. I am telling you...you think this is about unions, it is not. The American worker is about to be ###@@ (use your imagination)- between manufacturing in third world countries and illegals. Major companies are no longer providing pensions or even health care.

[nyconse]

I have a new Chevy Cobalt- great car.

[nyconse]

The money goes home...I actually work for a foreign owned company-exccept for operating expenses. The money doesn't stay in this country. Our company gets tax breaks unavailable to American companies I might add.

[nyconse]

You don't understand. I hate Toyota because of the unfair trading policies of the Japanese. Sell cars in the US at a loss in many cases. They sell cars in their own country for top dollars because they prevent US car companies from selling in their country. Also, Japanese care companies are subsidized by their government. Our government makes it difficult for American companies to compete because of rules and regs-anti-business. I won't argue that GM has been badly managed over the years. However, trade policies are such that even with good management, American companies are at a disadvantage unless they move their plants to third world countries-using slave labor really.

[nyconse]

This is absolutely true!

[eraser2005]

"That's a stat I would really like to see because, ultimately, that's what it boils down to."

You and me both, my friend. :) That is one of the things I like about the msnautos reliability data - it gives you a ballpark how frequent problems are and how much they cost to repair. I've found their info to be frighteningly accurate in the past...

"Another thing to consider is that not everyone takes good care of their vehicles either. I'm pretty much a fascist about doing preventative and scheduled maintenance on my vehicle, and it shows but not everyone does that."

Very true... I'm a little anal about scheduled maintenance myself. :) I do some things far more often than scheduled. No more than 3 years between tranny fluid changes for me, thank you... I don't believe Toyota's manual for a second when it claims 100k before scheduled coolant changes and no scheduled tranny fluid changes...