Israel: Iran Aided Hezbollah Ship Attack

Associated Press ^ | Jul 15, 2006 | MATT MOORE

[sukhoi-30mki]

Is it clear what this corvette was doing there??Because it does have the option of removing it's Phalanx gun for a 76 mm gun for patrol duty & shore bombardment,which by any means is not the best role for a small calibre weapon.The Saar 4 & 4.5 class boats too have the Baraks & Phalanxes,so they really wouldnt need the '5s for AAW cover.If anything Israel can use it's vast experience with artillery systems to beef up a 120 mm modular gun to fire rocket assisted projectiles.It could even modify its Nimrod anti-tank missiles for naval use.

[sukhoi-30mki]

The Silkworm is close to obsolete.This weapon is roughly in the class of the Exocet & Harpoon.

[sukhoi-30mki]

the C-802 has it's own active radar system onboard.

[sukhoi-30mki]

The vertically launched Barak does have 360 D coverage.Its a very competent weapon,acknowledged by most people.About the size & capabilities of the Israeli navy,well it is suited for their small size & mission requirements.Their stretched budgets will allow for few big ticket purchases,but they have packed maximum punch into their platforms.Their subs are easily the best in the region,if not the whole Med(barring the new German Type-212s) & they are stretching that advantage by going in for newer German D/Es with AIP.They are also contemplating building new corvettes(probably a variant of the US LCS) to be equipped with a long range Barak variants,being codeveloped with India & advanced Electronically scanned radars.

[sukhoi-30mki]

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/sea_missiles/barak/Barak.html

[Tommyjo]

Israeli subs are Med based. They don't have any Dolphin Class outside of the Med. Think about the logistics for getting them there? They can't take them through the Suez and the only way out is through the Straits of Gibraltar and all the way around the Cape of Good Hope.

[Prost1]

I think they can get them through the Suez. After all we are talking about the Middle East and Egypt.

With $$ anything is possible.

[gafusa]

Yes, but only against higher altitude or slower targets, the hanger and superstructure reduces the ability to guide against fast sea-skimming threats from the rear quadrant, (the missiles have to pass over the ship, and then down on their target) and they have most radar in a forward mounting above the bridge, while the Arleigh Burke has 4 separate arrays, for full coverage, and a Phalanx both forward and astern, as well as missile launchers fore and astern. Israel's problems include that their Dolphins (like nearly all current German submarines) are short ranged, and that their largest guns are only 3 inches, as well as a lack of a good platform for ground attack cruise missiles. They could really use a destroyer.

[rmlew]

I agree that it was a mistake to use the IDF navy for anything oither than blockade duty.
The Sa'ar V, which was designed and built in the US, is a corvette not a frigate. It is heavily armed for a 1,200 ton ship. It did better than the USS Stark, which is a 3,500 tonn frigate.

I would think that future Israeli ships will have anti-missle systems on both sides. I imagine that Israel will be retrofitting the 3 Sa'ar V's with electro-optical 30 mm cannon and will try to purchase a 9-cell RAM launcher like the Germans use on their missle boats.

[rmlew]

Isn't HDW now owned by the US?

It is a shame that they won't build 6 of these for Taiwan.

[rmlew]

They have no ASW (except helos) or AAW either, and the CISW's are only good for a few shots. After that they have to be reloaded, which is not exactly an efficient tactical reload. They couldn't handle even a mild saturation attack. The Iowa's are just too old and outdated. In a very few years, their 16" guns wont have any real value either, not with the super-long-range 155's coming out.
The 8 double mounted 5"/38 turrets could be relpaced. Modern 5" guns provide much better anti-aircraft fire. Moreover, It would be easy to mount a few Rolling Airframe Missle lauchers and ever Sea Sparrow launchers on a 45,000 tonn battleship.

Those old girls were retired for a reason.
They took thousands of sailors to run, and were obsolecent?

[sukhoi-30mki]

The US firm that purchased HDW cancelled the deal because of political & legal complications.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Isn't HDW now owned by the US?

Not anymore. The German gouvernment dismissed any political motivated US-ownership. After it was clear that the transfer of naval technology for using it to buildt submarines (for export to Israel and Taiwan) with German design in the United States will be not possible, all American investments (that were done of this reason) were dissolved. As far as I know your administration is quite frustrated since they still have no possiblility to supply Taiwan with this technology. Besides of that the nuclear powered US-ships are not the ultima ratio to all submarine operations. Although they have a great overall performance, they are for sure not as stealthy and quiet like modern DE-subs with AIP systems.

It is still US-money in the game, while there is no political background anymore. The HDW-group stays one of Europe's most important shipbuilders and fusioned with Kokums, Nordseewerke (ThyssenKrupp AG) and Blohm & Voss. The US-investment firm OEP "One Equity Partners" was a important shareholder of the Nordseewerke. Therefore they got quite a portion of the new Holding. Anyway they are not in a decisive position.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Yep! the 16"-guns are outdated.

Modular Naval Artillery Concept (MONARC) was a study of the German defence industry about mounting the turret of the PzH 2000 self-propelled howitzer on a naval ship of frigate size.

The size required above and below deck and the weight of this turret are not much different to the OTO Melara 76mm gun system, the standard naval gun of the German Navy. But to deal with the much greater recoil of the 155 mm artillery piece on such a small vessel, a flexible mount with damping elements had to be designed.

This mount and a PzH 2000's turret was fitted experimentally in December 2002 on the Type 124 Sachsen class frigate Hamburg at the shipyards of HDW in Kiel, when she was still fitting out. 2004 the fire-control system was tested with a PzH 2000 strapped onto the helicopter deck of Hessen, another Type 124 frigate. The feasibilty of using even the unmodified PzH 2000 with unguided "dumb" rounds to attack naval targets had been proven previously by the Swedish Coastal Artillery with tests performed in May 1996.

Rheinmetall, the producer of PzH 2000's gun system, plans to design special smart naval rounds that will boost the range of the gun from 30km with standard NATO ammunition and 40km with assisted rounds to over 80km, more than many anti-ship missiles.

The future F125 class frigate will very likely make use of this concept.

155 mm/52 MONARC on German Frigate FGS Hamburg

155 mm/52 MONARC prototype at Rheinmetall proving range in Unterlüß in June 2003 Note the elaborate "Flexible Mounting" required

The Panzerhaubitze 2000, or PzH 2000 for short, is a 155mm self-propelled howitzer developed by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) together with Rheinmetall for the German Army. It is arguably the most powerful artillery system currently deployed. It is particularly notable for a very high rate of fire; in burst mode it can fire three rounds in 9 seconds, ten rounds in 56 seconds, and can fire between 10 and 13 rounds per minute continuously depending on barrel heating. PzH 2000 has also been selected by the Italian, Dutch and Greek Armies, and more orders are highly likely as forces upgrade their M109 Paladins.

The loading of shells is automated, two operators should be able to load 60 shells in 12 minutes.

In April 2006 a PzH 2000 shot assisted shells (Denel V-Lap) over a distance of 56km with a probable maximum range of over 60km

[seasoned traditionalist]

"Ditto. Iran has stepped in the sh*t and is not going to be able to scrape it off"

Oh you silly wabbit. Of course they are going to "skate."

We already have Rice "urging" them to moderate their response to savage attacks, murder and mayhem on their country and population.

As soon as Israel even hints at targeting Iran, they will have the wrath of the Security Council (and sadly, I predict our concurrence) come down on them like a ton of bricks.

They have in their corner, don't forget, Russia and China, as well as every other leftist/loony third world tin pot dictators (such as Chavez) who will scream bloody murder and (much as Israel was reigned in during the 6 Day war, less they conquer all of the Middle East and completely destroy their adversaries, as well as we were during Gulf War I, when we were pressured from marching into Baghdad) force a capitulation and prevention of Israel attacking Iran, regardless of proof or provocation. (IMHO)

[spetznaz]

LOL. I see you point, but the 'elite' Republican Guards of Mr SpiderHole were probably elite .....it is just that they were facing an opponent whose least experienced soldier was probably 3 or more times better than the best Iraqi soldier. The Republican guards were probably quite 'elite,' especially compared to the basic Iraqi soldier, but compared to any US soldier they were simply meat to grind.

Analogy: A trained pitbull is a very effective fighter. In essence among the elite of fighting dogs since in their true form they were trained for fighting and holding. However that pitbull is simply FOOD if matched against a leopard. Leopards 'love' dogs, and a pitbull would get carried off so quickly that it would seem like it simply vanished. Probably the same thing with the 'elite' Iraqi soldiers (and their Iranian counterparts) .....they have better training than the basic Iraqi (and Iranian) grunts, and thus can be rightfully called elite, but 'elite' is a relative term .....the most elite dog , in a single matchup, would get torn to shreds in less than 2 seconds by the most average (healthy adult) leopard. Every single time. The only way this outcome would be different is if there is more than one dog (eg lions have been taken down by 15-20 South African Ridgebacks), if the leopard is old or sick or 'weird,' or some other extraneous factor. Otherwise the winner is a given 10/10 times.

Same thing with the 'elite' Iraqi/Iranian forces. They may be elite, but only in Iran and IRaq (and even then only if Uncle Sam's bravest are not on the hunt for Iraqi hide).

[gafusa]

The new US DDX has two autoloading 155, but of course is much larger so recoil is not as big a problem, but in completely new mountings, so that the gun can be largely retracted, to help keep the ships radar signature the size of a small fishing boat when on patrol, to hide amonstgst the other traffic in places like the Persian Gulf or South China Sea.

[flynmudd]

Oh ye of little faith.