Liberal Christianity is paying for its sins

LA Times ^ | 7/9/06 | Charlotte Allen

[redgolum]

You ain't seeing nothing yet. Wait till liberals edit God out of the Bible

Thomas Jefferson did that once, and it seems like a lot of the "new and improved" translations are trying to. Which is why I have quite a collection of Bibles around the house.

Now if I could only learn Greek....

[redgolum]

A good place to look at a bunch of translations is http://www.e-sword.net/

He has a down loadable e Bible, and many translations. Hard on the eyes to read for any length of time, but a great resource!

[nmh]

"Embraced by the leadership of all the mainline Protestant denominations ..."

Not ALL. Many. Baptists aren't at all as liberal as Episcopalians.

[nmh]

Liberalism of this nature will ALWAYS lead to destruction.

[nmh]

It shows you how LITTLE they think of "new converts" that they have to resort to such ridiculous language. After awhile it won't matter ... they're not preaching about what's in the Bible. They're making it up as they go along.

[bmwcyle]

Liberal Christians are like Libertarian Godless Conservatives.

[Redleg Duke]

As a life-long Lutheran (ALC -> ELCA) who left it for the LCMS last Fall, I cannot believe the feeling of "coming home"!

I saw the path that the liberal leadership was steering the ELCA onto and it is not the path that the Jesus Christ Almighty whom I was raised to believe in would have us trod.

As to the "moral clarity" of the Catholic Church that "notwithstanding" trumpets, if it makes him/her happy, then leave him/her be. We have a vicious enemy in Islam to deal with and bickering between us will just make it easier for the Islamonazis to defeat us all.

I believe that the Christian Church is undergoing a new revival. The liberal hi-jacking will result in their controling an empty shell. The true believers will group together, and no, I do not mean all return to "notwithstanding"'s church of "moral clarity", but to church's of like-minded believers who will raise up their churches as the empty shells taken by the liberals wither and fall.

[redgolum]

"Progressive Christianity" is no more Christianity than same-sex "marriage" is marriage!!!! As my Serbian Orthodox priest says, "progressive" "churches" are not churches, but CLUBS!!!! It is "Progressive Christianity" that is boring and outmoded--it is stuck in the 1970s!!!!

Love that quote. The ELCA is no longer Christian, no longer Lutheran, and not really a "church". But it is in America, so I guess than can keep the name /sarcasm. On a side note, have you converted to the SOC yet or are you still attending?

[AnAmericanMother]

My point was that the elders were offering the prayers of OTHERS. That's what the saints do before the Throne for us. (We don't pray TO them, by the way . . . don't know who started that ugly rumor. We ask the saints who stand in the presence of God to remember us and pray for us. Just as you would ask a friend in your congregation to pray for you.)

WRT Purgatory, Jesus used the Septuagint version of OT Scripture and quoted from it extensively (portions of it were later rejected by Protestants however.) The Book of Maccabees in the Septuagint specifically mentions prayers for the dead. So does St. Paul. You don't need to pray for the dead if they are already in heaven. They have to be somewhere . . . therefore Purgatory. As C.S. Lewis said (the compromise view), if you get out, you can call it Purgatory. If you don't, you can call it Hell.

[Notwithstanding]

My Catholic pastor used to play "hide the ball" when it came to doctrine because he was an apparent heretic. He was especially silly when it came to hiding doctrine from persons converting to Catholicism. As one of the instructors for a very large class, I used to give the pastor fits because I whenever he would deviate from official doctrine (which is always rooted in scripture) I would cite and quote the doctrine and ask him if that was correct. He, of course, was forced to agree that it was correct. And so true doctrine was ultimately made known to those wishing to join our Church. They were free, then to, knowingly accept or reject it.

That is the beauty of the Catholic Church - our doctrine is clear and when it comes down to it, a pastor must repsect it when making a public statement - or risk serious consquences.

[AnAmericanMother]

Greek is NOT hard! The alphabet is the hardest part. Once you get that under your belt, you'll find that you already know a surprising amount of Greek from loan-words into English (almost any medical term, for example.) And the Greek of the Bible is a simple, straightforward sort of Greek, not flowery like some of the Classical writers. Plus, if you have a good knowledge of the Bible, you can read side-by-side and find that you sail along!

There are lots of nice books that will start you in Greek, I'm most familiar with the Classical ones because that's where I got started. But there are also primers for Koine Greek as well.

Just go ahead and leap in!

[Bryan24]

There is nothing in the scriptures that indicate Mary was sinless.

The scriptures tell us that all sin and fall short of the glory of God. That includes Mary.

What the Catholic church leaders say doesn't count, because they erred from the original teachings.

[AnAmericanMother]

Good for you!

Best reason I can think of why EVERY Catholic (every Christian for that matter) should spend some time every week studying the Bible and the Catechism.

Unfortunately you can't always guarantee that your priest will be a straight-ahead orthodox man. But we are very, very lucky to have a fierce old Irish dreadnought for our pastor. He is an absolutely uncompromising preacher and teacher. Just yesterday he slammed "liberal Christianity" in no uncertain terms . . . didn't name any names, but the Episcopal church is on everybody's mind right now. I told him after Mass that I wanted to jump up on the pew and shout, "Listen to the man! DON'T DO IT!" (I used to be an Episcopalian but fled from the Wrath to Come.)

[AnAmericanMother]

Gabriel's salutation in the original Greek uses a very unusual verb form, making it clear that Mary was absolutely FULL of grace, completely "graced" in a permanent sense. Oddly enough, many English translations distort this meaning, using "highly favored" or some other combination of words that isn't there in the original.

Odd that they would do that.

The early Church Fathers, some of whom knew the apostles personally, were absolutely certain of Mary's purity and sinlessness. They also made perfectly clear that this was a gift from God, not due to any merit on Mary's part, so that she would be a fit mother for God Himself.

[redgolum]

I know the alphabet and some basic words, but my problem is that I don't have the time to dive into a lexicon yet. I am thinking about buying a side by side Septuagint with Greek and English, along with borrowing a friends lexicon, and going from there. Might be a good winter project.

The hardest part for me is the syntax and recognizing that Greek is a very subtle language. A simple word can have many subtle implications, and that makes reading the Bible that much more interesting. I am an engineer, so my mind is organized more into "either/or" type of thinking than the subtle nuances of Greek. Great for reading P & ID drawings, but not so good for theology.

My local church had classes in Koine Greek a while back, but I didn't take the time to go to them.

[Bryan24]

Nowhere in the scriptures was Peter presented, represented or reffered to as the shepherd of the whole church.

The pope have often held themselves as infallible.

Pope Gregory VII (1073-85) :
"The pope cannot make a mistake."

Paschal II: (1099-1118)
"Whoever does not agree with the Apostolic See
is without doubt a heretic."


Pope Innocent IV (1243-54):
described himself as
"the bodily presence of Christ."
( presumably by a kind of
transubstantiation at his election)

Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303) :
"Every human being must do
as the pope tells him."

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903):
"We hold upon this earth
the place of God Almighty."
( Encyclical Letter, June 20, 1894 )

Peter didn't hold those positions. Paul surely didn't. But looking at those quotes, it sure seemed the popes view themselves as perfect, or as Pope Leo XIII says, they see themselves as 'God on Earth'.

[Wallace T.]

The Old Testament was never in question for the primitive church, although the issue of the Deuterocanonical books was something of a controversy. The Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) included these books, whereas the Palestinian Hebrew text did not. However, we see Christian writers in the late 1st Century and early 2nd Century AD, such as Clement of Rome and Polycarp, citing the Epistles of Paul and Peter authoritatively. The ante-Nicene Fathers cited only the books that constitute the current New Testament (plus the Old Testament) as their sources. While the recent movie, "The Da Vinci Code" brought to public attention the existence of alternate Gospels, orthodox churchmen and theologians rejected their testimony and authority because the person of Jesus Christ and the theology presented contradicted the consistent positions found in the canon of the New Testament. Despite the statement in "The Da Vinci Code" that the New Testament Apocrypha were a matter of extreme controversy at the Council of Nicaea, the fact is that the resolution establishing the existing canon passed overwhelmingly.

The fact is that the New Testament was considered authoritative by orthodox Christians from the generation immediately following the apostles to the Council of Nicaea. Additionally, the key doctrines of the Christian faith, such as the divine and human nature of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the Substitutionary Atonement, et. al., were evident in the writings of the ante-Nicene fathers. Church councils tend to confirm what had been the predominant practice "in the field". For example, the Catholic Council of Trent affirmed many doctrines and practices that were prevalent in the medieval Catholic Church, adding its imprimatur to what had been the prevalent teaching for several centuries.

[AnAmericanMother]

Well, since Christ quoted the Septuagint directly numerous times, that, as they say, is good enough for me!

[AnAmericanMother]

I would buy a side-by-side New Testament first. Most of us are pretty conversant with the text already.