Posted on 07/05/2006 7:03:35 AM PDT by ElRushbo
cause of death unknown
"Please. Complete hyperbole.
If losing a job or losing money ruins your life, then you're not made of very stern stuff."
BS. Maybe, maybe you're one of these staunch entrepreneurs who lands in the dirt, dusts himself off, and keeps going. Or maybe, like me, you're comfortably into a career, but nowhere near the end of it; plenty of time to recover from a shock.
The majority of people work a job, put money away, and live their lives with the expectation that as they near or reach retirement age, their savings will be there. This security is the tradeoff they make for the lower pay and poorer conditions of being employees as opposed to entrepreneurs.
Now you take your 62 year old, with 30 years in the company; or you take your 70 year old, into his retirement, and you take it all away, and they're going to just pick up and say "meh"? I don't think so. There *is* no next job for those guys.
Now, as their job is gone, their house is taken, their marriage is on the rocks, and their kids start thinking of them as a burden and not a joy, you tell them to suck it up and put on the happy blue greeter's apron.
Personally I'm expecting the same @#^#ing by our friendly federal government when the boomers all retire and demand my wages be taxed at phenomenal %age to pay for their last gasp of ME-ism; and the fact that I see it coming does not abate my deep anger at the prospect.
Nothng I think would hold up in court I'm sure, but that's the way I see it. I didn't mean to imply that Lay was lily-white in the matter, just stupid and you're probably right...but his score has been settled. He has to face the ultimate judgement now.
LOL! Me too.
"My hypocrisy only goes so far"
Wikipedia is a great resource, usually, but I understand it can be "edited" by others who log in, so it is subject to tampering.
Dead and still dead.
Dear wideawake,
"In other words, Enron and not the SEC regulates the stock market."
LOL! Yeah.
I remember seeing this old guy on TV with his 401(K) statement. It had one entry - for Enron shares. Face value at statement date - something like $1.8 million. He was whining that now his entire 401(K) was worthless.
And I'm thinking, you didn't bother to sell a SINGLE SHARE AND BUY SOMETHING ELSE?? WHAT THE HELL DID YOU EXPECT, FOR THE TREES TO GROW TO THE SKY??
And then it occurred to me, yeah, that's what folks think. That trees will grow to the sky.
I've often thought that one regulation that might be worthwhile would be to limit the percentage of company stock folks could have in their 401(K)s. I'm not usually amenable to additional government regulation, but I think that the whole Enron debacle shows that a significant portion of America needs protecting from themselves.
However, instead of something that approaches being sensible or appropriate like some additional reform of 401(K) rules, we get that swansong from the previously unheard-from senior Senator from Maryland, the Sarbanes Oxley Act! What idiocy!
sitetest
Tragic. What does it profit a man if gains the whole world but loses his soul?
He personally walked off, as far as we can tell, with $40M.
That's quite a ripoff.
Thousands of lives were affected
Correct.
Again, he didn't kill anyone.
People who do harm to others and claim its not their fault because the other allowed himself to be taken advantage of are called sociopaths.
After making such a big show of "selling off all his Aspen properties," I don't get how he happened to still have a home there.
It would be wrong of me to say anything nice about him now, but may he RIP and God have mercy on his soul, as I pray He will have on mine.
It's dismaying, but a lot of folks know just about nothing about how to invest in financial assets.
***
I came from a time when directing one's own pension was not done -- at least for those of us in the middle class or lower. And even when the practice did become more readily available, a lot of people were made to feel they couldn't do it. Particularly women. I can remember at a benefits meeting in one of my past jobs (mostly women attendees), this human resources guy said we women didn't have to worry about benefits because most of us were married and our husbands would take care of us. Huh?
To this day, there are a number of women I know who won't even try to manage their own pension or financial assets. As soon as I could, I directed my own pension and still do to this day. I made a few mistakes, but I think overall, I'm better off than if I had let my employer(s) do it for me. Just wish I could do this with all that money I paid into Social Security.
Do Notte Buye Betamacks
"BTW, it's amazing how many FReepers actually believe that a company can have an in-house rule that prevents shareholders from freely disposing of vested shares as they see fit."
Actually, Lay et al. elected to change Enron's plan administrator *just* at the time all this fraud became public.
This caused a freeze in employee accounts at the same time the stock crashed; no hope to escape for employees whose company 401k were locked into Enron stock. Sure the rule is the SEC's, but the *action* was taken by the Enron execs. Indemnifying the execs is like blaming a gun and not the shooter for a murder.
DO the research...
Dear No.6,
If you're 62, and have the bulk of your 401(K) in a single stock, then you've done a very poor job of taking care of your financial future, and should take responsibility when it's ruined by the failure of a single company.
As wideawake points out, folks are permitted to sell their vested shares. The fellow with 30 years, and who is 62, has had a lot of vested shares to sell. If he didn't unload boatloads of them, then he's acted irresponsibly.
Mr. Lay certainly deserved prison for his crimes. But folks don't get to lay the consequences of their own stupidity at the feet of Mr. Lay.
sitetest
Thanks for your rational and proportionate posts. This thread is yet another reminder of why the founders were wise in not opting for pure democracy and mob rule. The mob would have lynched Lay for a crime of theft.
Dear fatnotlazy,
"To this day, there are a number of women I know who won't even try to manage their own pension or financial assets."
As an employer, I can promise you, there are just as many men as women who are stupid about investing.
As for Social Security, if I could have taken the money I've paid in till now and just bought index funds, combined with my other retirment savings, I could retire by now. I'm 46.
sitetest
I've mentioned this before, but I believe (and fear) that what you mention will come to fruition in some sort of fashion. When you consider that there has to be trillions invested in 401(k) and IRA plans, you wonder how long it will be before politicians (from BOTH parties I believe) will look at such $ as they next great tax revenue stream.
What to do? I don't know. I ping Southack, as he is knowledgable in such things economic.
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