India's Affirmative Action Rocks the Boat

Business Week Online ^ | MAY 19, 2006 | Manjeet Kripalani

[samsonite]

Reactions to the latest measures that benefit the lower castes have been stormy as the population battles for coveted spots in universities The scenes from the streets of Bombay, Delhi, and other big Indian cities have shocked India. As medical students and young doctors peacefully protested a government initiative to reserve another share of seats in colleges and universities for members of lower castes, police set upon the marchers, beating many of them with truncheons.

Even more shocking to many, officials later claimed that although a few students were hospitalized, the police had not used undue force. One politician even dismissed the injuries as "just a few broken bones." Such responses have spurred students and young professionals across the country to join in the protests. ANCIENT GRIEVANCES. Rarely has an issue so polarized India. The country's 10 million undergraduate students see the already limited number of spots in universities shrinking further. Those in favor of the affirmative action program -- generally referred to as "reservations" -- say such measures are necessary to make up for 3,000 years of a caste system that allowed Hindu society to become stratified into the privileged few and the excluded many. A loosely organized guild system, based on professions such as priests, princely warriors, leather-workers, blacksmiths, weavers, and cowherds, eventually grew into the caste system. For centuries, the system allowed educated Brahmin priests to wield enormous power over kingdoms won by warriors and made wealthy by merchants. They exploited the rest of the uneducated populace, consigning them to the underclass by virtue of their birth. Intermarriage and even socializing between the various castes was forbidden. Officially, the caste system was abolished when India achieved independence from British rule in 1947.

[Gengis Khan]

Poor sagar is fixated on this one.
Seems like he is trying to bait you into making a point that would endorse his agenda. Lets hear it from him.

[SJSAMPLE]

CFO - Indian (VP level)
Assistant CFO - Indian
IT Director (reports to CFO and ACFO) - Indian (now an American citizen).

We like to call it the "Indian Mafia" ;)

Besides, CONFIRMING is easy.
PROVING is another thing entirely.

[SJSAMPLE]

Everybody but the top guys (naturalized citizens) are H1B guys.
Making waves might mean a one-way ticket back to India.

[SJSAMPLE]

I agree wholeheartedly.

Personally, I feel a private business (and they're ALL private) should be free to discriminate for whatever reasons they like. EO, "hate crimes" and other legislation just interferes with the interests of private business owners.

The government however, must represent the interests of all citizens. Their only goal should be to eliminate all discrimination (inclusing quotas and set-asides) from the public sector, without encroaching on the abilities of private business-owners to run THEIR businesses as they see fit.

In the case I mentioned, I don't believe that the IT director has the permission or authority to establish his own caste system within the stockholders company. He's an employee, not an owner.

[traviskicks]

Ah, I see what you were saying, yea it would be different if he was the owner of the business.

But I still think the best way government can prevent discrimination is to resist the urge to 'do something about' discrimination.

[SJSAMPLE]

Yep.
The goober-mint has shown an ineptness at everything except collecting taxes.
They're ruthless when it comes to taking our money.

[sagar]

"Seems like he is trying to bait you into making a point that would endorse his agenda."

In a Freudian slip, An_Indian mentioned(in post #8) that caste discrimination is "RACIST." That was before my supposed "bait."

Deal with it. In India upper castes control every aspect of economic, civilian and military life. Now the uneducated lower castes want socialism so that they get "their share" of the pie, these upper-caste hypocrites(who would otherwise be promoting socialism) are running around like headless chicken. Aspiring upper caste students protesting the quota system.

Struggling and suffering oppressed lower castes



Do I see a pattern here?

[sagar]

True. But lawyers see big money. They would not let such a golden opportunity pass by... especially when an IT DIRECTOR of a public company is so openly discriminating. Big money to be made...

[Gengis Khan]

What you are parroting is simply rhetorical BS but what exactly is your point about "Racism"? You didnt explain. And what pattern do you see?

[Gengis Khan]

And you are trying to claim that this picture of a man carrying an old man is an example of "oppressed lower castes" suffering at the hands of the higher casts?

How do you know what cast they are? And now you are a pro-socialist eh?

[Hiro Protaginast]

Maybe an Indian won't answer you, but I will. Yes, caste is Race. It was instituted by the Indo-Aryans. With them being the upper castes and the indigenous Dravidians comprising the lower castes.

[sagar]

"And you are trying to claim that this picture of a man carrying an old man is an example of "oppressed lower castes" suffering at the hands of the higher casts?

How do you know what cast they are? And now you are a pro-socialist eh?"

Not really. I am exposing hypocrisy. India(read: upper caste ruling elites) is quick to praise Maoist-Socialism in Nepal as "triumph of democracy", while their children(medical students) riot in India because of the socialist quota system was being carried out in their country.

If India wants to project itself as a socialist-friendly regime, its ruling elites should at least have the courage to vacate all their undeserving power.

They make up 5% and control 70%+. At the same time call other countries to surrender to the Socialist/Maoist blackmail.

[Gengis Khan]

Not really. I am exposing hypocrisy.

 

Exposing eh? Tell me whats the connection between socialism and Reservation system? US is a capitalist country, even the US has affirmative action.

 

India(read: upper caste ruling elites) is quick to praise Maoist-Socialism in Nepal as "triumph of democracy", while their children(medical students) riot in India because of the socialist quota system was being carried out in their country.

If India wants to project itself as a socialist-friendly regime, its ruling elites should at least have the courage to vacate all their undeserving power.

 

Your fatuous anti-India rhetoric only suggests that you are still vindictive over India not having supported your dictator. My advise : Get over it! India isn't likely to support any dictator no matter whatever the lame excuse.... socialism, Maoism anything.

Get a clue India's lower casts are already in power. BTW India is a democracy (unlike Nepal until sometime time ago) where the "ruling elites" (whether upper casts or lower casts) can occupy or vacate their power only on people's mandate.............................. unlike the King next door. Oh and yes the guy who recently increased the reservation for the Medical seats ....HR minister Arjun Singh is from the upper cast.

They make up 5% and control 70%+. At the same time call other countries to surrender to the Socialist/Maoist blackmail.

 

Quit blathering.

 

 

BTW You didn't answer me about the "race" bait. And what was that last photo about?

[Gengis Khan]

Maybe an Indian won't answer you, but I will. Yes, caste is Race. It was instituted by the Indo-Aryans. With them being the upper castes and the indigenous Dravidians comprising the lower castes.

 

Whoa!! Cast is race eh?

And Dravidians are the lower castes?? How so? Then what about the huge population of higher cast in sourthern India? And the large population of the dark skinned south Indian brahmins? Could you explain? 

 

How old are you?

[anu_shr]

Upper castes are typically light skinned and lower castes are dark skinned. But there are exceptions and those exceptions get created through process called Sankritisation. Caste system is a strange cocktail of race,color, upward mobility, religious doctrine and geography which divides the one billion people of India as much it unites them.

Upward mobility happens when lower castes adopt upper caste behaviour related to cleaniness and vegetarianism as well as learn rituals and one fine day declare themselves Brahmins or Kshtriya or whatever. This of course happens over generations. Dravidian would have learnt rituals and unilaterally declared themselves brahmins. Some tribes take up arms and capture territories and become claiments of Kshtriya caste.

As is obvious - this happens but rarely happens as Brahmins ( and others who are getting there ) constantly work towards prevention of such upward mobility through sanctions and violence if need be ( life of a cow for eg is more important than that of a non-brahmin ). While in current agitation against quotas, there is some sense of idealism in the youths fighting for what they consider inequality , much of it is motivated by a desire to preserve status quo.

So while caste is defined by birth and race - exceptions happen all the time due to the above process. Some shudras like the Kayasthas ( and their equivalents like Reddys, Nairs and Bengali Kayasthas ) took up bookkeeping and started getting educated and when the British came took advantage and became the steel frame of Bureaucracy and then took advantage of higher education.

Kayasthas are dark skinned in general like the other OBC castes like Yadavas and are "wannabe" brahmins and if they had renounced meat/alcohol 6-7 generations ago, would have become claimed themselves to be a sub-sect of Brahmins. Probably their status as the leading caste in educational and managerial fields made them less motivated to to Sanskritization a.k.a Brahminisation.