No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between... Middle Ages and 21st Century

MEMRI TV (Middle East Media Research Institute ^ | 2/21/06 | Wafa Sultan

[SauronOfMordor]

in other words, you do NOT read Arabic and thus cannot say whether the translations you claim to have read are correct or not

The claim that Arabic is untranslatable is a long-standing method of Muslims avoiding having to own up to what is said in the text. I don't buy into that, neither do the vast majority of people on FR who are not Muslim apologists, so don't even bother raising that issue any more

When a Muslims site hosts the Qu'ran with three independent translations by Muslim translators, and the three translations essentially agree, then that's good enough for me. If you want to show me alternate translations, by reputable scholars of Arabic and English, then be my guest

If you want to point me towards alternate translations of Hadith (again by scholars of recognised reputation), then go ahead

Until then, I will assume that your arguments in this area are just Taqiyah

[SauronOfMordor]

murdering CHILDREN is FORBIDDEN by ALL decent peoples/religions. don't you KNOW that much???

In that case, Islam does not qualify as a "decent religion", by its own writings

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:

Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima [sanctuary; inviolate zone] is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."

And the failure of Muslim religious authorities to unambiguously speak out against Palestinian bombings that kill children renders them "not decent people"

[stand watie]

until you prove otherwise beyond doubt, i will assume your arguments (based on the reading which you admit you have NOT done in Arabic)on this particular subject are BUNK & HOKEM.

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

once more, your argument is about what the LUNATICS (read: many of the clergy, sadly) believe, rather than the "rank & file" believer.

free dixie,sw

[SauronOfMordor]

until you prove otherwise beyond doubt, i will assume your arguments (based on the reading which you admit you have NOT done in Arabic)on this particular subject are BUNK & HOKEM.

That's cool. You are free to believe what you wish to believe. For there to be dialog there must be common, agreed-upon premises. So there can be no further fruitful dialog between us

Meanwhile, I will continue to speak what I consider to be the truth about Islam (and other topics), and you are free to call me whatever names please you in response

[stand watie]

it's NOT a matter of "calling names".

i will just continue to point out to everyone that you "know NOT & know NOT that you know NOT", as you have NOT (by your own admission) done your research from the original texts. that's fair, isn't it???

at best, it's called ( as my old grad school profs used to say of student's work) "did slovenly research, from less than reputable secondary sources, when the PRIMARY source was available but unused".

free dixie,sw

[Fred Nerks]

Bible Verses in Many Languages:


Af-maxaad tiri, Af-Soomaali, Afrikaans, Akimel O'odham, Al Arabiya, Ambo, Arabic, Araucano, Ashlushlay, Axluslay, Bahasa Indonesia, Bahasa Melayu, Beetjuans, Blue Meo, Caffre, Cauzuh, Changana, Chaoxian, Chechen, Chinese, Chuana, Chulupe, Chulupí, Chulupie, Churupi, Coana, Creek, Cuana, Cuangar, Dauwa, Dawa, deitsh, Dongo, English, español, Farsi, Greek, Gullah, Gwamba, Haitian, Hawaiian, Ikinyarwanda, Hebrew, Hindi, Hmong Njua, Indonesian, Isiswati, Isiswazi, IsiXhosa, Isizulu, Ivrit, Japanese, Kaffer, Kaffir, Kekchi, Ketchi, Kikongo, Kimbundu, Kingoni, Kinh, Kinyarwanda, Kiswahili, Kitsonga, Koosa, Korean, Kwangali, Kwangare, Kwangari, Lingala, Loanda, Loande, Luanda, Lunda, Malagasy, Malayalam, Malaysian, Malgache, Maori, Mapuche, Mapudungu, Mapudungun, Maputongo, Mbundu, Melanesian Pidgin, Meo, Miao, moRukwangali, Muskokee, N'Bundo, Nalca, Nalja, N'Bundo, Nbundu, Ndauwa, Ndebele, Ndonga, Ndongo, Nduga, Ndugwa, Ndzundza, Nebome, Nevome, Ngala, Ngoni, Nihongo, Nokchiin Muott, North Mbundu, Northern Sotho, Nokhchiin, Nrebele, Nyoro, Ochindonga, 'Olelo Hawai'i, O'odham, O'othham, Orunyarwanda, Orunyoro, Oshindonga, Osindonga, Otjiwambo, Owambo, Papago, Pedi, Pennsylvania Deitsh, Pennsylvania Dutch, Persian, Pesecham, Pesechem, Pesegem, Piman, português, Portuguese, Ruanda, Rukwangali, Runyoro, Rutooro, Rwanda, Samoan, Sechuana, Seminole, Sepedi, Sesotho, Shitsonga, shkip, Shona, Shuar, Sikwangali, Sisotho, Southern Ndebele, Southern Sotho, Souto, Somali, Spanish, Suthu, Suto, Swahili, Swati, Swazi, Te Reo, Tekela, Tekeza, Thonga, Tohono O'odham, Tonga, Transvaal Ndebele, Transvaal Sotho, Tsonga, Tswana, Uele, Uma, Upper Piman, Urunyarwanda, Vietnamese, Welle, Xhosa, Xichangana, Xitsonga, Xosa, Yupik, Zulu, Zunda,

http://www.seghea.com/pat/bible/language.html

Yumi olgeta man yumi bin mekim sin, na yumi no inap i stap wantaim God long heven. Rom. 3:23

Sin i save givim pe long ol wokboi bilong en. Dispela pe em dai tasol. Tasol God i save givim nating presen long yumi, em laip i stap oltaim. Dispela laip yumi kisim long wok bilong Jisas Krais, Bikpela bilong yumi. Rom. 6:23

Yupela i bilip long Krais, na long marimari bilong God tasol, God i kisim bek yupela. Dispela em i no samting yupela yet i mekim. Nogat. God i givim nating long yupela. Em i no olsem pe bilong wok yupela i mekim. Olsem na i no gat wanpela man em inap litimapim nem bilong em yet. Eph. 2:8-9

Tasol man bilong kisim takis em i sanap longwe, na em i no laik lukluk i go antap long heven. Nogat. Em i paitim bros bilong en na i tok, 'God, mi man bilong mekim sin. Yu ken marimari long mi.' Lk. 18:13

"God i gat wanpela Pikinini tasol i stap. Tasol God i laikim tumas olgeta manmeri bilong graun, olsem na em i givim dispela wanpela Pikinini long ol. Em i mekim olsem bilong olgeta manmeri i bilip long em ol i no ken lus. Nogat. Bai ol i kisim laip i stap gut oltaim oltaim. God i no salim Pikinini bilong en i kam long graun bilong skelim pasin bilong ol manmeri bilong graun olsem jas. Nogat. Em i salim em i kam bilong kisim bek ol. Jn. 3:16-17

http://www.seghea.com/pat/bible/melanesian.html

The Bible 'works' in Melanesian Pidgin but but but the koran can't be translater from arabic...you gotta be kiddin...!

[Albion Wilde]

btw, IF the word(s) "Moslem", "Muslim", "Islamic", etc (in most of these comments on this thread)were simply changed into "AmerIndian","Asian","Black", "Latino", "Jewish",etc., how long do you think it would be until: 1. the thread was PULLED and. 2.everyone, who made those comments, were BANNED??? the answer is NOT LONG! that simple substitution of words should tell you "something" about the level of IGNORANT prejudice, mean-spiritedness & HATE-filled opinions of the "anti-Moslem forces" posted here

Stand Watie,

With all due respect, I cannot support your implied moral equivalence between criticisms of the theology of Islam and that of Christianity, nor equating this discussion with racism. There is no provision in Christianity for lying to, subjugating or killing unbelievers, as there is in Islam. Just the opposite, in fact.

I believe your personal situation, although compelling for you, is not an accurate indicator of the world situation. Other FReepers on this thread are attempting to come to terms objectively with the scope of the threat if the stated goals of Islam - world conquest, and dhimmitude for "infidels" - do come to pass. The threat is real, due to the growing percentage of subjugated populations and radical Islam's demonstrated similarity to fascist totalitarianism.

Freedom of religion is not a possibility under Islam. Christianity, by contrast, encourages absolute truth and sincere conversion out of free will, not force. Sharia law's institutional subjugation of females and non-Muslims constitutes a dangerous ideology for our interconnected world.

If you are a Baptist or a sincere follower of Christ, I encourage you as the spiritual leader of your family to bear witness to your adopted daughter, revealing to her the word of our Lord, so she can make an informed choice. You must take responsibility for your loyalties and be sure that your affection for a Muslim relative does not overshadow your devotion to Christ Jesus, who is your God and your intercessor before the Father.

Christ teaches that no earthy attachment should overpower you from following him - neither for mother, father, child, in-law, spouse, or the cares or pleasures of this world.

If you are a Jew, God chose the people of Israel to be recipients of his eternal law and his Commandments. He commands that you have no other God before him, and set your priorities accordingly.

If you are not a sincere follower of the God of Abraham nor of Christ Jesus, no amount of political correctness demanded by you from other FReepers will change our minds towards the real political threat of Islamist extremism. It is entirely possible to love your neighbor and still to take appropriate precautions if he plays with fire and threatens to burn your house down.

Blaming FReepers who try to bring disturbing facts to light is not likely to bear good fruit for you. God's blessing and good luck to you with the choices you face.

[nutmeg]

Link to brief video of discussion in post #1

[Fred Nerks]

Beautifully spoken/written. Thank you.

[M. Espinola]

Very well stated!

[M. Espinola]

Some cause and effect headlines from the world of jihadist Islam.

Iran to build two more nuclear plants

Belarus backs Iran in nuclear standoff

Japan Curbs Oil Imports From Iran on Concern Over Disruptions

Japan sees the hand writing on the wall for future, Iranian régime instigated, major energy disruptions in the oil-rich Persian Gulf region.

"Japan is curbing crude oil imports from Iran, its third-largest supplier, out of concern the standoff over the Middle Eastern country's nuclear program increases the risk of supply disruptions."

"Japan, the largest oil user after the U.S. and China, imported 13.8 percent of its oil from Iran in 2005. The Islamic Republic holds the world's second-largest oil and gas reserves."

Iranian Oil Map

Gillerman: World War III already begun

Crude Oil Trades Near Two-Week High on Iran's Nuclear Program

A U.S. soldier runs past a destroyed Humvee at the scene of a car bomb in Baghdad’s Tahariyat Square in Baghdad, Iraq, on Monday. The bomb killed CBS journalists Paul Douglas and James Brolan. AP photo

Attacks kill 54 across Iraq Bombers hit market, car dealership, bakery U.S. shifts 1,500 troops into volatile province

Hezbollah Becomes Strategic Threat; Rockets Can Strike Tel Aviv

[Fred Nerks]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1639048/posts

check out post #30. Re: Iranian Oil fields.

[mac_truck]

Eye opening thread in more ways than one.

[stand watie]

i am NOT an "expert" on the Koran & i don't play one on TV either, but my daughter states that what i posted reference English translations is FACTUAL. (pardon me, but i'll take her educated opinion over yours.)

reference the BIBLE: SEVERAL available translations have obvious & GLARING errors, when compared to the oldest extant texts, so your comment on that score is FLAWED.

care to try again?????

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

i do NOT ask for political correctness from ANYBODY. just an END to DISHONESTY & obvious prejudiced/racist comments about Muslims & "persons, who are other than white".

as a "non-white person" myself, i must SADLY tell you that i have been a recipient of a GREAT deal of openly racist comments by e-mail, from persons who CLAIM to be FReepers. (i was once DUMB enough to give out my real-name & e-mail address on the forum. another FReeper posted those pieces of information on several ANTI-war/leftist web-sites & since then i have received a mountain of abusive, obscene & outright racist FILTH in my in-box.)

i HOPE that the senders are NOT FReepers! (as i assume you know, this site is read by a legion of NON-FReepers.)

as for attempting to "evangelize" my daughter: thanks, but no thanks. (i only ask my girls to be moral, to worship God according to the dictates of their conscience & to respect the differing beliefs of others.)

THANKS for your response.

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

when ""m.eSPINola" agree with a post (ANY POST!), "albion", i would worry about the correctness of "my position", if i were you.

"mr. spin" appears to be both a BIGOT & a HATER of the 1st order.

"mr. spin": stick to posting your SILLY & meaningLESS cartoons & making DUMB-bunny comments. you're "out of your depth" here in a serious discussion.

free dixie,sw

[bayouranger]

Blaming FReepers who try to bring disturbing facts to light is not likely to bear good fruit for you. God's blessing and good luck to you with the choices you face.

Great closing to you post, which I must say was very robust in content and sincerity.

Take care,
BR

[stand watie]

THANK YOU!

free dixie,sw

[Albion Wilde]

as a "non-white person" myself, i must SADLY tell you that i have been a recipient of a GREAT deal of openly racist comments by e-mail, from persons who CLAIM to be FReepers. (i was once DUMB enough to give out my real-name & e-mail address on the forum. another FReeper posted those pieces of information on several ANTI-war/leftist web-sites & since then i have received a mountain of abusive, obscene & outright racist FILTH in my in-box.)....

I have heard something about this from another FReeper of our mutual acquaintance. His remarks concerned an infiltrator at FReeps some years back whose leftist/anarchist intention was to unmask real identities of FReepers and do harm. Several FReepers were abused online, but the perpetrator was not someone committed to Jim Robinson's vision for this association. This had to be a distressing turn of events. I am sorry it happened to you. Please have faith going forward that it is not the intention of the vast majority of people who take the time to respond thoughtfully on FR threads with multiple links to citations.

If you and one of the others on this thread have "history", I hope both of you would attempt to discuss the topics at hand without defamatory comments.

as for attempting to "evangelize" my daughter: thanks, but no thanks. (i only ask my girls to be moral, to worship God according to the dictates of their conscience & to respect the differing beliefs of others.)

Let the...children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. Matthew 19:14

Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it. Proverbs 22:6

Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me. Matt. 16:24

A wise son heeds his father's instruction... Proverbs 13:1

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14

Many blessings to you and yours, Stand Watie.