Bush jet damaged local runway (Air Force One)

news.com.au ^ | 23rd May 2006 | Peter Veness

[Red6]

Wrong answer.

Check it out if you don’t believe or like it. Lufthansa flight LH498 will take off and fly into Canberra Australia 24 May. In fact tomorrow SEVERAL 747’s from various airlines will fly into this airport.

http://www.lufthansa.com/online/portal/lh/us/book_and_prices/flight_booking?tl=1&l=en Just type in From Frankfurt to Canberra. In fact this Lufthansa flight will be a 747-400 and will thus have a max gross weight larger than Air Force One.

http://www.canberraairport.com.au The airport is defined as an international airport. It claims itself to be an international airport. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canberra_International_Airport In fact I can’t find any source that claims otherwise!

Sorry, don’t buy it.

[MrsEmmaPeel]

My guess is that the runway isn't up to the specs it's supposed to be

Personally, I don't believe that. I lived in Canberra for 14 years. Its a very wealthy city. Good grief, they re-pave the roads the Queen uses prior to her visit.

It sounds like a hit piece to me.

[truemiester]

You are correct on the T-43. Old airframes with old engines. Still working though.

[naturalman1975]

The airport is defined as an international airport. It claims itself to be an international airport.

Direct international flights began using Canberra Airport in 2004, so technically from that date, it has been an international airport. But these flights have involved 737-300 and similar aircraft coming from places like Fiji.

As to your claim that 747s fly into Canberra Airport, I offer the following statement by Warren Truss, Australian government Minister for Transport and Regional Services made at Canberra International Airport on the 27th February 2006.

It is my very great pleasure to announce this morning that the Australian Government will contribute $28.5M towards the cost of upgrading the main runway at Canberra International Airport to enable it to take 747-class and heavy military planes. This project will be undertaken as part of the lengthening of the runway being undertaken by the Canberra Airport itself and will enable this very significant upgrade in Canberra’s gateway to occur as a seamless project. This will mean that for the first time, aircraft with international dignitaries on board will be able to land direct in Canberra when they are in that heavier category of aircraft such as 747s. In the past, these aircraft have been required to land in Sydney or Brisbane or some other port and then their passengers are transferred to a smaller aircraft which was capable of landing at Canberra. This will be particularly important with APEC coming up next year. We’ll have a large number of international visitors in Australia and it’s entirely appropriate that our national capital ought to be able to welcome these people in a direct flight from their homeland.

This upgrading will obviously be a major asset also for our national capital. The airport will be capable of carrying these aircraft irrespective of the operator and whilst I’m not aware of any airline about to start 747 services into Canberra, it does open up the possibility should there be the demand in the future. A few years ago, about 2001, the Australian Government provided $8M for some upgrading of the runway to enable it to be used occasionally for these very heavy aircraft but there are limitations on the number of aircraft that could use the runway in those circumstances because there was no strengthening of the pavement. This strengthening work will mean that there’ll be no effective limitations on the number of aircraft that will be able to come into Canberra and in addition to that, they’ll be able to come in under full load-type conditions. This will make a very big difference to the airport. Can I congratulate everybody associated with Canberra International Airport for their cooperation with the Government in the development of this project. There’ll be obviously mutual benefit to this city.

The project is expected to begin very soon and we want it to be finished early next year and so you’ll see a great deal of activity here as this project gets underway and I wish everybody at Canberra International Airport every success with what will be a very ambitious work program and in delivering a project that will be a very beneficial project to Canberra and district.

747s are not flying direct to Canberra - not unless the Minister for Transport and Regional Services is somehow unaware of the fact.

[azhenfud]

I can't believe a government would allow the direction of a heavy to an underrated strip.

The PIC would not normally question the pavement rating if ATC directs him/her there.

[FreedomPoster]

I bet the smaller jets don't have the anti-MANPADS systems that C-17s have/are getting, and that AF1 I'm sure has.

[Red6]

Bud-

You can see the flights on line, by airline, by flight number, by departure time and arrival time.

Lufthansa flight LH498 will land there TODAY! Boeing 747-400, get it?

I gave you the link. Unless Lufthansa is lying or can't determine the make and type of their own planes, which I doubt, that plane will fly to Canberra TODAY, not hypothetically, or in the future, but TODAY, regardless of what you say.

[naturalman1975]

I gave you the link. Unless Lufthansa is lying or can't determine the make and type of their own planes, which I doubt, that plane will fly to Canberra TODAY, not hypothetically, or in the future, but TODAY, regardless of what you say.

It's not me who is saying it but the Commonwealth of Australia's Transport Minister speaking at the airport in question in February of this year. Somehow I think it's just a little bit likely that the Australian government's most senior figure on transport knows what he is talking about.

As for your link, I did check it out and it doesn't show what you think it is showing. If you type in Frankfurt as origin and Canberra as destination, it does indeed show LH498. But if you look at that page carefully, what you will see if that it reports a flight to Mexico City (LH498) and then a connecting flight (LH9660) to Cancun. Canberra is not in Lufthansa's database because they don't fly there. So when you type in Canberra, it seeks the closest alphabetical match that is in their database - which apparently is Cancun.

And incidentally, LH9660 uses an Airbus A320-100/200. Checking elsewhere, it's easy to confirm that LH498 is a Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt to Mexico City. You can check that out at:

http://dps1.travelocity.com/dparflifo.ctl?aln_name=LH&flt_num=498

http://www.fboweb.com/cob/google.asp?airline=DLH&flightnum=498

I think all those links will work directly but with forms it can sometimes be hard to do that.

BTW, the Minister's statement I quoted earlier can actually be found (in PDF form) on Canberra Airport's own webpage at http://www.canberraairport.com.au/pdf/Stengthening%20of%20the%20main.pdf

You can also find discussion of this at http://www.airtalk.org/canberra-runway-upgrade-vt52746.html

[GW and Twins Pawpaw]

The PIC is ALWAYS at fault if something goes awry...:-)

[bray]

Will they turn this into an immigration thread?

Pray for W and Our Troops

[Red6]

Flight LH498 flys Canaberra with a stop in Mexico. I didn't state it was a direct flight. It will fly from Frankfurt International Airport Germany to Canaberra Austalia today 24 May 2006.

[GW and Twins Pawpaw]

In the US an "International Airport" designation refers to Customs Service being available. For DRT, an International Airport, the weight bearing capacity is 35,000 lb for a single wheel gear. No other data was available on the site I viewed and it was not from a current AFD. My point was that having an International designation does not guarantee a sturdy runway to support a heavy aircraft in every instance and I don't have official data available for Canberra. Not trying to flame you, only clarify definitions used.

[azhenfud]

(banging on forehead) Pilot error. Pilot error. Pilot error.

I should have remembered. Pilot error.

[halfright]

Cept Molly Henneburg.....she's a hottie...

[pissant]

Yes, she is.

[GW and Twins Pawpaw]

Exactly! The gubbmint is NEVER at fault for ANYTHING!:-)

[naturalman1975]

Flight LH498 flys Canaberra with a stop in Mexico. I didn't state it was a direct flight. It will fly from Frankfurt International Airport Germany to Canaberra Austalia today 24 May 2006.

No, it does not. It flies to Mexico City where it meets a connecting flight to CANCUN not CANBERRA.

The two cities (Canerra and Cancun may have the same first three letters in their name, but that is the only thing they have in common.

As I have explained to you if you stick Canberra into Lufthansa's webpage, it doesn't find it because it doesn't fly to Canberra. Instead it looks for the closest alphabetical match, which happens to be Cancun. Cancun, is a coastal city of Mexico - that's why there's a connecting flight to it from Mexico City.

http://www.lufthansa.com/online/portal/lh/us/book_and_prices/flight_booking?tl=1&l=en Just type in From Frankfurt to Canberra. In fact this Lufthansa flight will be a 747-400 and will thus have a max gross weight larger than Air Force One.

If I follow those instructions that you gave earlier, as seen in this screenshot of my browser:

Note - I have typed Canberra into the destination - and press Search - then this is the website that results:

Note - it says Cancun not Canberra. The reason you get this is because Cancun is the closest alphabetical match to Canberra in Lufthansa Airport database - because they fly to Cancun, they don't fly to Canberra.

When I bring up the list of Australian airports that Lufthansa services:

note that Canberra is not listed.

Lufthansa does not fly to Canberra. It certainly doesn't fly a 747 of any sort to Canberra. It most definitely does not provide a 747 service from Frankfurt to Canberra via Mexico City. this is the website that results.

[Red6]

In 2002 the first Boeing 747 landed in Canberra from Japan.

When Bush landed in 2003, a United Airlines Boeing 747-400 (that was loaded down) came in with him (Press).

After that several other 747 have landed there (although not LH498 from Lufthansa).

Canberra IS an international port and officially became so in 2004.

You are right, I didn't do my homework. Lufthansa flight LH498 does not fly into Canberra, although Lufthansa does have flights into Australia (which I remembered and drew the wrong conclusions from). My search results were in error since the Lufthansa page found Cancun vs. Canberra. But then again, how does that change the price of rice in China? How does this change the actual issue at hand? Is a Boeing 747 an unusual plane to expect at an international port? Is it a plane one should not expect at a place intended for state VIP's? Is a 747-200 heavier or lighter than a 747-400 (Like the United 747 that landed in behind AF1 in OCT 2003)? Is AF1 probably a lot lighter anyway than even a usual airline flight were they try to pack on as much as possible?

Once again - You are right on this aspect that LH498 does not fly into Canberra with a 747. What else do you have to say?

[Red6]

Red Herring-

Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.

Description of Red Herring

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

[naturalman1975]

Once again - You are right on this aspect that LH498 does not fly into Canberra with a 747. What else do you have to say?

What I am saying is quite simple - Canberra Airport as it currently stands is not designed to routinely accept 747 and other heavy aircraft. It should be by this time next year.

The runway was strengthened in around 2001 to allow it to occasionally take a 747 or similar aircraft in unusual circumstances, and since that time a few 747s have landed there. But it's unusual for them to do so.

Canberra Airport is technically an international airport and has been since 2004, when it first began accepting small airliners from some Pacific Island nations. But in terms of its fabric and structure, it is still functionally a domestic airport, not an international one. While Canberra is Australia's capital city, it's actually quite a small city with a population of around 325,000, and it currently has an airport commensurate with a city of that size - a large domestic airport.

Should Canberra be able to handle 747s and othr similar aircraft routinely? Yes, in my view, it should be able to. It's a complication that in the past VIPs travelling to Australia on large aircraft have had to land at Brisbane, Sydney, or Melbourne and then transfer to a smaller plane to get to Canberra. And that is why the Commonwealth Government has announced funding so that Canberra can upgrade its runways and facilities for large airliners. But that is in the process of happening now.

Even when it is complete (early next year) it's unlikely Canberra will be routinely handling 747s - there's just not enough people who want to fly there direct from overseas to justify airlines providing that service.

My discussion with you hasn't been intended as a red herring at all. Oztrich Boy and I pointed out for people reading this thread the status of Canberra Airport - myself in message 97, OB in message 112. That it's a domestic class airport for a small city.

You objected to this description - which is entirely accurate, though is currently being changed with new building works - apparently based on a belief that Lufthansa flies a 747 to Canberra.

In fact you said: In fact tomorrow SEVERAL 747’s from various airlines will fly into this airport.

Well, no, that's not a fact. It's an error. The occasional 747 has flown to Canberra. But several have never done so in one day.

I said way back in message 97, that I believe Canberra Airport should be able to handle 747s and similar:

This really is a story about nothing - regardless of how rare it is, Canberra Airport should be rated for large aircraft as a matter of common sense. This incident is not the reason it's being upgraded - it's simply an incident that points to the need for an upgrade.

But the fact remains that whether it should be or not, currently it isn't. If you think I was arguing against the idea it should be able to do this, you're in error. My issue in recent posts is with what is the case, not what should be.