The myth of the easy machine gun

The Star ^ | 5/21/6 | Michael Bowers

[RipSawyer]

And their goal is to eventually ban ALL firearms - period. First will be the scary looking non "assault rifle", then cop killer bullets - which means any rifle over .22LR, then any semi-auto loading rifle, etc, etc, etc.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I doubt that they would allow the .22LR, especially if they have ever watched The Godfather.

[Dead Corpse]

The DIAS also requires ALL of the other M-16 fire control parts for it to work. You can't just drop it into an AR-15, with semi-auto fire control, and expect to rock-n-roll.

A lightning link might do the trick. I've heard of them, but never seen one. Again, the link itself would be considered a "machine gun" and require all the Class III Bravo Sierra that goes along with it. So much for an "inalienable Right".

The registered shoe-string "machine gun" for an M-1 is still the most ridiculous abuse of the Class III registry I have ever heard of.

[70times7]

Don't you just love gun-haters? They are so easy to discredit.

I have found this type of reaction rather common in liberals where I live. They have not applied any thought to the opinions they espouse, and when politely challenged with questions and facts the usual reaction is angry defensiveness. It is a breath of fresh air to find a liberal who will engage in thoughtful discussion. I have encountered only a small handful since I moved here.

[tcostell]

It's a lot of fun for us all to compare notes on how to convert a semi-rifle to select-fire, but the truth is that's not really the point.

There are laws against select fire weapons already, and since select-fire weapons (machine guns for you liberals ...masheen guns for those of you in the media) are almost never used to commit crimes, the laws in place seem to be adequately protecting the public without the need for more laws which infringe on the rights of gun owners.

Whether it's easy or not is beside the point, since criminals don't typically do it.


Don't let the politicians hide the ball on this.

[CodeToad]

"Which is why class III dealers get class III lowers... "

Yep. I onced researched the steps required to convert an AR to a class III machinegun. It isn't something someone without excellent machine working skills could accomplish. It also required the replacement of at least the bolt carrier with an M-16 carrier, which is not always so easy to obtain. The trigger group replacement is easy to obtain but illegal to possess without the Class III stamp, and it still requires the lower to be machined to accomodate the trigger group. Frankly, it just isn't practical.

Besides, there is little to no need for a fully auto AR.

[A Strict Constructionist]

And if I remember correctly, most full auto versions fire from and open bolt configuration where semi-auto's use a closed and locked configuration

[elmer fudd]

Most machineguns and subguns do fire with an open bolt, but assault rifles do not. An open bolt is bad for accuracy since you have a very long locktime and the gun is being jostled by the closing of the bolt as you fire. It's my understanding that the BATFE also bans any open bolt guns since they are much easier to convert to full auto.

[looscnnn]

I am betting that the ATF has the Hellfire classified as a machine gun. They classified a shoestring as one.

[jaydubya2]

"Submachineguns or select fire assault rifles aren't significantly more deadly than their semi-auto siblings. It's all a myth perpetrated by Hollywood."

I agree with you there. I've never fired a full auto, but I would imagine a shoulder fired full auto would be much harder to control and have a lower round to hit ratio than a semi. I've played enough first person shooter games to know your get more kills by aiming carefully, fire, then move to next target. Instead of spraying the entire area.

[tet68]

Some open bolt guns like the Suomi are very accurate,
the Suomi rate of fire is controled by a check valve in
the end of the receiver, since tolerances are very close
the feed stroke is retarded, also the round fires slightly
before chambering completely.
The great Finnish sniper Simo Haya made many kills with his Suomi.

Kids, remember, the ATF has NO sense of humor and that
you're NEVER too old to go to prison!

[tet68]

YOu can see the check valve on the end of the receiver. the lower model was adapted to fire from tank loopholes. The machine work on these is very fine, hardly cost effective now adays, to see the ATF torch cut the receivers breaks one's heart.

[tcostell]

Yeah... I'm no gunsmith, but when I think about the workings of my fire control group (trigger) on my AK, I don't see how it can work. It seems to me that you would still need a hammer retainer to slow it down relative to the charging bolt so that there is some small delay between the bolt being sprung forward and the hammer falling on the firing pin.

Again, I'm no expert, but I have the advantage of having an AK trigger to look at, and it doesn't seem as easy as a paper clip to me.

[tet68]

Without the disconnector the bolt will just ride the bolt/
carrier, this might produce an out of battery discharge
also.

Not something to fool around with.
If you just want to spray lead, you can always bump fire
but hitting something would be another story.

[Gaffer]

But then, there's the penalty....from what I remember it's $250K fine and 5 years of A$$-Bangin' jail time...quite a deterent....

[archy]

It'd be easier and cheaper to locate an out of state Class III dealer and rob him or her.

That is assuming one is stupid enough to try and rob someone who owns and most likely really likes to shoot machine guns.

That was tried about a decade back in Indianapolis, by a street punk armed with a knife, who broke into the business adjoining an Indy gun shop, waited for the owner to close up, then cut through the intervening wall, bypassing the roof/door/window alarm systems.

Surprise, surprise: the owner was still inside, having let an after-hours visitor leave. And he had his suppressed H&K MP5SD smg in hand. When told to drop the knife, the felon did not, and the shooter let fly. And missed with all 30.

And so he went to his backup plan: another MP5 family buzzgun, unsuppressed this time, and let go anmother magazine's worth. One round hit the assailant and killed him; 14 years old, as I recall.

I think the shop owner would have been *much* better served with a shotgun, but inside his store without hearing protection, and at night, maybe not- particularly if there was more than one *visitor* involved. No criminal charges, and a *no bill* from the grand jury shortly thereafter. If imperfect, not nearly as bad an outcome as might have been.

[elmer fudd]

My understanding is that Simo Haya was not just a sniper and that a great many of his kills were made in close combat. For sniping I believe he used an iron sighted Moisin Nagant. Still at something like 700+ kills he must have been a phenomenal marksman.

[epow]

Guns aren't exactly cutting edge technology, and its easier to produce a full auto STEN than almost any other type of gun.

I wouldn't hire a journeyman plumber who couldn't make a Sten subgun out of the pipes and fittings he carries on his truck.

[Lurker]

It's stories like that which confirm my belief that even in trained hands subguns are largely useless in self defense situations.

60 rounds for one fatal hit. Not good odds if you ask me.

L

[MarkL]

And if I remember correctly, most full auto versions fire from and open bolt configuration where semi-auto's use a closed and locked configuration

It's pretty much unheard of in modern rifle calibers, but some pistol caliber full autos will fire from an open bolt.

Mark

[archy]

It's stories like that which confirm my belief that even in trained hands subguns are largely useless in self defense situations.

60 rounds for one fatal hit. Not good odds if you ask me.

Not necessarily. I spent a couple of training cycles at Ft Knox as an acting instructor on the M3/M3A1 *greasegun* to enthusiastic young tank crew rookies, and most of them were pretty good by the time we were done with them.

Of course the expected range of any real-world use of the greasegun by them woas the ten or fifteen feet across the back deck of their tank, probably while moving and with a 50-50 chance of it being at night, to discourage any unwanted and unloved hitchhikers and riders with bad intentions. And so for that purpose two greaseguns were carried aboard...but EVERYONE carried a M1911A1 .45 automatic.

The point is that a hit or two from the SMG is no more lethal or likely than one or two from the pistol- and there've certainly been many [too many!] cases of full magazines worth of *spray-and-pray* pistol fire being exchanged without result. But the usually larger magazine capacity of the SMG can be useful, and I've carried and used one since and been glad I had it.