George W. Bush on Immigration (A Man that Delivers on what he Says)

issues2000 ^ | 2006(updated) | issues 2000

[Krodg]

Agreed.

It seems that many posters think that by being very vocal on every thread, we will all vote out the Republicans. That won't happen. They may lose seats, but it won't be because we all ran to a third party. I think we learned our lesson with Perot.

[catholicfreeper]

"How can Bush have shown to mislead us. Again the purpose is to show quotes and stances over a period of time."

1st as to Guest worker Thats pretty clear that he has always supported that.

The question comes down to this has Bush mislead on "amnesty" I guess it comes down to what amnesty is and what that means.

The pertinent part of What Bush says he wants is this.
"There is a rational middle ground between granting an automatic path to citizenship for every illegal immigrant, and a program of mass deportation. That middle ground recognizes that there are differences between an illegal immigrant who crossed the border recently and someone who has worked here for many years, and has a home, a family, and an otherwise clean record. I believe that illegal immigrants who have roots in our country and want to stay should have to pay a meaningful penalty for breaking the law to pay their taxes to learn English and to work in a job for a number of years. People who meet these conditions should be able to apply for citizenship but approval would not be automatic, and they will have to wait in line behind those who played by the rules and followed the law. What I have just described is not amnesty it is a way for those who have broken the law to pay their debt to society, and demonstrate the character that makes a good citizen"

Now when I hear the word amnesty I think of plan that says ok your here you can become citizens now. In fact this is what Kerry was saying that he wanted to do that Bush opposed.(The Been here 5 years you are citizens now plan)
Now that is amnesty. There appears to be nothing automatic about this proposal Bush has stated he would support.

As I try to grapple with the objections people have to this bill or proposal I see the following threads of thought that various people that that oppose the Senate Bill that Bush supports have.

(1)That a proposal will be amnesty to some people if its nothing short of deporting all illegal aliens and allow them never to return. To be honest, I think thats a wrong definition and not one contemplated when people are thinking of this debate

(2) To some it means that a proposal is not amnesty if it makes all illegals leave but allows them to participate in a guest worker program later on however they can never be citizens ever because they broke the law. Again I am not sure if most Americans are thinking of this either in the context of amnesty.
(3)People can come here and work and become citizens only after going through the same process as everyone else. That means they have to leave and stay outside the USA and follow the process even to work. However do restrictions on later citizenship because of earlier illegal entry. That I guess it means they are literally behind everyone else even folks from Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and the Sudan. Anything more is Amnesty and related to this point
(4)The fairness question. Bush said " People who meet these conditions should be able to apply for citizenship but approval would not be automatic, and they will have to wait in line behind those who played by the rules and followed the law." Now the objection I hear to this is that this is hogwash. The fact is that people have to wait long period of time and even illegals with a 11 year period till they could even apply to become citizens will still have a jump on those who wanted to come here legally. This objection is the one I find that has the most merit. In fact in some ways if there is anyway to say that Bush's proposal is amnesty might be through this provision. I am sympathetic here. Every time I hear the story about that now NFL football player(Penn State) and how is Momma is still stuck in Liberia I want to scream. However, if there is a comprehensive reform of the system would this still be the case. Backlogs and staff problems are legend as to the immigration Dept. There are proposals to eliminate this. This would involve also taking a look at the lottery we have for Visa's and the like. If those problems in the system are eliminated then why should the illegals get a jump on everyone else. If the issue is legal versus illegal immigration it should not be a issue.

In short, how is whats most likely to come out of the Senate Amnesty or auto citizenship. The issue to me is not the fact if more Mexicans will become citizens here. Thats seems to be a pretty established fact since so many have family and relations here no matter what happens.
Now of course its apparent that beside the citizenship question these illegals will get a jump on those applying to work here that are from other countries. But that is a less of a concern to me at this point. In fact, studies show that at least a Third want to be here just temporary which I think is a good thing. Its very much easier for the temporary agricultural workers to be from Mexico than lets say Bangladesh. One last note. The reason I took some time to respond is that I spent 30 minutes after dinner looking at the 1986 act Reagan signed. The problem seems to have been laid at Reagan feet. I was surprised that I never saw the word Amnesty mentioned in any of the provisions(perhaps I missed it). I was 15 at the time and have no independent recollection of the events. Buts its interesting to note that much of the problems seem to be the ones that occurred later on and especially in the Clinton administration through various amendments and additions to the act. This includes a compromise in 2000 between Lott, the Speaker and Clinton that added a whopping 900,000 applicants to have their residency requirements reconsidered for the original 1986 act. That shows border security is a must. Something I think we all agree on.

[Plutarch]

The pertinent part of What Bush says he wants is this.

You are quoting Bush, but it is difficult to tell (because you are not using italics to distinguish quotes) what Bush is saying and what you are saying.

Also, you do not reference your Bush quote. I do not know when it was spoken.

Bush may have let slip at various times, even before the 2004 election, that he planned to usher 12 million illegals out of the shadows, and give them a path to citizenship, or whatever dissembling euphansim he calls amnesty.

But when he had an audience of tens of millions just weeks before an intensely tight election, Bush mentioned amnesty only to condemn it. He twice emphasized the temporary nature of the Guest Worker's stay. Now, he goes against the majority of Senate Republicans to join with Ted Kennedy and Kerry to have permanent legal residence in the U.S. for illegals, and eventual citizensip. Now he says, it isn't amnesty because it isn't automatic. That wasn't a line Mr. Straight Shooter used in the debate, was it?

It stands that Bush purposely deceived us during the 2004 election about his illegal legalization intentions.

[little jeremiah]

I got this far:

"It is time for an immigration policy that permits temporary guest workers to fill jobs Americans will not take, that rejects amnesty, that tells us who is entering and leaving our country, and that closes the border to drug dealers and terrorists."

I am nauseated by the stupid phrase about jobs Americans won't do. And if he's so concerned about porous borders how come they're still porous?

Personally, I think catholicfreeper is a R operative. Are you, cf?

[little jeremiah]

North American Union to Replace USA? ("is this the plan?" alert!)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1634942/posts

If any of you haven't checked out this thread, you should. Lots of info/links on the thread, too. Explains it all.

[investigateworld]

I read that earlier.

The globalists have a point. I mean just look at what passes for politics.

But I read the Book and know who it all ends ;-)

[Luke21]

"so far Bush 41 and GWB have had the best records of appointing good people."

Like David Souter?

[little jeremiah]

Take a look at the article I linked to above.

[catholicfreeper]

Well the italics would be helpful. I guess by this point I better figure out how to do that on here. Someone sent a html thread but I think I deleted it.

Well, I guess from following Bush the last 6 years and closely as Gov for 4 none of this shocked me. I guess I knew pretty much where he stood having to see him a lot on TV everyday as GOV. I think Bush is seeing what the Senate bill has developed and think its pretty clear to his principles. I am not sure he thought out the whole specifics of the immigration debate and a future bill at that point in Arizona. Thats what the process is about.

I do not share your concerns that KErry and Kennedy are on the same boat to a certain degree on this. I am sure there is stuff in a proposed compromise bill they might find hard to swallow in the end.

[voteconstitutionparty]

To Hell with "Guest Worker" "Tempory Worker" or whatever you call it!

[VOA]

I'll withhold comment until we see if Dubya signs the "compreshensive"
immigration bill with the Amnesty for Identity Theft provision still included.

[catholicfreeper]

Sorry you felt nauseated. At least its past dinner time and perhaps that helped reduce the chances of you actually throwing up. Oh well if your're like me you thank God for small blessings.

I am not sure what a R operative is. I suppose if R stands for Republican I guess you could say that I am a republican operative. However I am not employed or taking orders from any National, State, local, or interest group that is Republican in nature. The thoughts I express are my own and are not coming from Karl Rove or the Ghost of Abraham Lincoln for that matter.. They are based on my conservative, republican ,Catholic ,Christian background. With a healthy dose of common sense I hope and the hindsight of my limited 35 years on this earth.

[investigateworld]

Can you live with 12 million new Democrat voters who will support abortion?

[catholicfreeper]

THe guest worker program is in the Republican platform. Also Bush campaigned on it. Its not just a easy thing to say the hell with. I suspect certain groups would have reactions similar to pro lifers like me if he said the hell with partial birth abortion and stem cell issues

[Plutarch]

...see if Dubya signs the "compreshensive" immigration bill with the Amnesty for Identity Theft provision still included.

Sign it? Bush gives every indication he would sign anything "comprehensive". He would sign it it had only 6 Republicans voting "yea", if illegals were given reparations, if citizenship were as automatic as "Bush's fault" in FR threads, if La Raza had written the bill. Not even Dane could devise a bill bad enough that Bush would refuse to sign, just so long as it was "comprehensive".

[OKIEDOC]

Unless something extraordinary amnesty for felons is about to be put into law over the objections of the majority of voters.

[catholicfreeper]

First off I am not sure where we are getting this 12 million figure from. I know there are ton of studies that show different figures. In the end problly about a third or slightly more of this 12 million figure will go home to Mexico and have no interest and being citizens. They will do like they do every year work and go back. A great percentage of this 12 million will not make it through the citizenship requirements or get in trouble and so forth and will never be citizens. Many will not qualify at all to even start down that road.

I have faith that many of of these potential voters 11-13 years down the line when they actually take any sort of oath will be friendly to pro life causes. I got imagine having to keep a Job for 11 years pretty consistently, working, and keeping your nose clean will help. We got 11 years to market the message to boot.

One other word, on the 'Pro-life" issue. Right now I have some major concerns and its not on the other side. I started wondering about these "anti immigration" organizations I have seen referenced all over the place. Not so much the minutemen but other that are presenting data ,giving press releases, and lobbying. Well after using google for about 5 hours last night , I saw enough to scare me a tad. I am having some concerns that Social pro life conservatives who feel strongly on this issue might through their ignorance be helping to empower folks with different agendas that are different from there own. I called DC today and talked to a major pro life person to look into this and tell me if I am being paranoid or if this stuff needs to come to light or at least talked about. I hope its nothing. Here is a thread that touches on part of my concerns. If you notice even the strongest backers that would support House BIll like only solution expressed concerns in this thread and others that referenced. Again, this is a side issue really but its bothered me much today. At some point people ride the isses to political power. I just want to know their motives.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1621143/posts

[investigateworld]

Uhhhh ya right, just look at California since the last Amnesty.
Not one but two hardcore abortion loving Democrats.

Both the State Senate and Assembly, again hardcore abortion loving Democrats.

Because I'm so delicate and refined looking (</Sarc) I was always assigned to work Hispanic districts when I did volunteer work for the Republican Party.

Sorry, but they rationalize voting for Democrats as the 'are poor people, we need help'.
They are totally indifferent as to who the Patroness of Innocent Ones is.

[investigateworld]

Going to head for the barn and say good night, I just want you to know I'm not trying to beat you up.
But if you read my 'about' page, you'll see I have no no illusions about politics-corruption-dope running or what is really going on.
I stay active in the arena only as I could not face my Maker knowing I did not do all I could to protect innocent life.
I even kicked in $XXXX to the Swift boat guys as I detest Kerry and the Democrats.
Ciao

[catholicfreeper]

Oh well thanks. Don't worry you have been most civil and I have enjoyed conversing with you. I am looking forward when this debate over immigration cools down a little. I suspect there will be much more agreement among folks as other issues come to the forefront.

I understand your views on abortion and the politcs of it. I still have reason to hope. I just desperatly hope though we hold and not lose any Senate memebers for at least two years. I have a strong feeling that JUstice Stevens is a pretty traditional Justice. Since he was appointed by a Repub he will step down under a Repub. I think thats coming up after the election. His replacement is the clincher to getting Roe overturned. So hopefully we will all be unified by July or on the road to being so.