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To: tonycavanagh
But the future he described just stretched my credibility too much
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The last 75 years of the 19th Century were a time of great progress in Europe.
I wonder what you would have said if I had met you in 1900 and said:

By 1925 all the great empires of Central and Eastern Europe will have collapsed into chaos and small successor states, riven by nationalism and petty jealousies.
That by 1950 well over half of the Jews in Europe will be massacred in a period of less than 10 years.
That one of the European great powers in a span of less than 25 years would massacre over 30 million of it's own citizens in an attempt to remake its social structure. And that these dead would be in addition to the deaths of millions of its own citizens in a great war.
By the end of the Century Europe will fall from the preeminent civilized continent into a shell that will not be able to admit to itself its own irrelevance in the 21st Century.

From the perspective of 1900 all these would seem impossible. Yet they all happened.
The future will be stranger that we imagine. It is likely to be stranger than we CAN imagine.
9 posted on 05/16/2006 5:28:24 AM PDT by Cheburashka (World's only Spatula City certified spatula repair and maintenance specialist!!!)
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To: Cheburashka
I will send two replies to you, this one dealing with your reply the second to look at the seeds of the story under discussion :By 1925 all the great empires of Central and Eastern Europe will have collapsed into chaos and small successor states, riven by nationalism and petty jealousies.

I would have agreed that that was possible, a lot of the Empires the Russian and Austrian Hungarian empires were riven by internal disputes.

re :That by 1950 well over half of the Jews in Europe will be massacred in a period of less than 10 years.

Once again that is possible since pogroms of Jews were well known, in Europe, although I would have thought Russia before the First world War, anti Semites was not so Strong in imperial Germany although it was in Austria which was part of the Austrian Empire.

re : That one of the European great powers in a span of less than 25 years would massacre over 30 million of it's own citizens in an attempt to remake its social structure. And that these dead would be in addition to the deaths of millions of its own citizens in a great war.

Once again believable, after all we already had the French revolution and the terror from the attempt to remodel French Society followed by the Napoleonic wars. in Russia as in France we had a huge peasant base largely ignored by the landowners, and a middle and skilled working class looking for change.

10 posted on 05/16/2006 5:46:07 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: Cheburashka
re :The future will be stranger that we imagine. It is likely to be stranger than we CAN imagine.

No its not the seeds of the future are in the present.

Lets know look at the future scenario as laid down in this story and lets look at the seeds.

This story talks of a huge powerful Islamic Army poised to take over the world. A story set in the future must have some basis in the present. At this time we are engaged in a series of conflicts covert and overt with Islamic terrorist groups that is true.

And yes there is a degree of cooperation amongst them that is also true.

But in all cases extremist Islam is on the defensive.

In Iraq and Afghanistan we are building viable self supporting nations.

Al Quaid has recognised in both countries that they are losing the support of the local population.

Iran has her own problems, she is fighting her own wars in both the North against separatist movements and in the south against those who are looking for regime change.

In her major cities there have been numerous demonstrations by young people who see no future under the present regime.

For this story to be even remotely true. There will be a need for a movement a personality to unit the Islamic world.

Osama Bin Laden thought he would be that man, but his star and movement is in decline.

Mahmoud Mohammadi-Araqi he has trouble uniting his own people.

Lets look at past examples in attempts to build a united Arabic or Islamic front.

Since the birth of Israel, the Arab nations were determined to destroy the nation, each attempt failed, the Arab nations lacked both the political will or the military muscle to defeat a small nation, each war saw a humiliating defeat and allowed Israel more land.

The Arab world is full of political infighting and bickering as various nations jockey for position, yes they would like to see a united Islamic grouping but only under each countries respective leadership, so Egypt sees herself as a the natural leader as does Saudi Arabia, Iran definitely would, but she has two problems, they do not trust her and she is not a Arabic nation, that counts for a lot in the Arabic world.

Eurabia always makes me laugh, in Britain my country the Islamic population is at most 2.5%, in France it is 9%. And research shows that while fresh immigrants will have large families as they did in the old country.

There children tend towards smaller families, and grand children even smaller as they become more materialistic and westernised.

As someone who lives in a high Muslim area, looking at the local youth there is not much that distinguishes them from local white youth, fast cars seem all the rage, that and hanging on street corners wearing the latest in fashion and bling.

In France, the riots before the recent ones were shown as the Muslim movement flexing its muscle, this is rubbish it was more to do with lack of opportunities, marginalised on the sidelines of a society that doesn’t want them. The accidental death of those two boys running from the police was as much a catalyst as the Rodney King affair in America, where LA erupted into riots.

All countries have marginalised groups including Africa where I have experienced at first hand riots that were similar to those in Paris, LA and Bradford a few years ago. Also because of the War on Terror, immigration has now become number one in Europe with people voting for political parties that will be a lot tougher on immigration and will crack down on illegal immigration. Under the covers so to speak, the intelligence agencies and police forces of Europe are working in close co-operation with each other and America in tracking down groups and individuals. On Iran there is much closer co-operation between America Britain and France and Germany, so Europe is also waking up to the threat from Islamic extremists. In my own country we have got into gear and have investigated those Mosques where extremists were allowed to flourish. The Young man who displayed that placard at a London demonstration declaring another 7/7 was coming because of the cartoons was forced to apologise on national TV and has now been charged with breaching the peace. Many militant leaders have been arrested or forced to flee abroad.

11 posted on 05/16/2006 5:49:59 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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