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To: tpaine
James Madison stated that the general welfare clause was not intended to give Congress an open hand "to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare." If by the "general welfare," the Founding Fathers had meant any and all social, economic, or educational programs Congress wanted to create, there would have been no reason to list specific powers of Congress such as establishing courts and maintaining the armed forces. Those powers would simply have been included in one all-encompassing phrase, to "promote the general welfare." To whit, my tongue-in-cheek commentary about the gibberish following the preamble. Writing about the general welfare clause in 1791, Thomas Jefferson saw the danger of misinterpreting the Constitution. The danger in the hands of Senators and Congressmen was "that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and, as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please."
I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That ‘all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people.’ To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition. - Thomas Jefferson
Thanks in great deal to the efforts of Justice Marshal (and his protege Justice Story), the tiller of the ship of state was already turned a scant 50 years after the war for independence was fought. Within 20 years of Justice Story's COMMENTARIES, a bloody war would be fought concerning the very issue of state's rights (and the states lost).

Madison has some intersting things to say on the topic in Federalist 41:

It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States," amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. ...

But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, we must take the liberty of supposing, had not its origin with the latter. it is for error to escape its own condemnation!

However, it is clear that there's a perceived Madisonian contradiction. To whit:

From the CATO Institute Volume 16 Article 1:

Leonard R. Sorenson, a professor of politics at Assumption College in Massachusetts, has undertaken to rescue us from our rescuer. According to Crosskey, Madison was duplicitous: Publicly, Madison proclaimed that the General Welfare Clause is merely a synonym for the enumerated powers considered collectively, not an independent source of power. But privately, Madison believed that the General Welfare Clause delegates to the Congress plenary legislative power; that the enumeration of specific powers served simply to allocate and assign governmental functions, establish certain procedural limitations, and illustrate some of the powers deemed to be necessary and proper. This alleged difference between Madison’s public and private persona is at the root of the so-called Madisonian contradiction.

Sorenson’s thesis, based primarily on Federalist No. 41, is that Madison regarded the enumeration as defining the objects entailed within the general welfare and the other general clauses that make up the Preamble (i.e., justice, domestic tranquility, common defense, and liberty). But those objects are the broad ends or purposes of the Constitution, not just means or powers. Therefore, states Sorenson, Madison understood the general terms of the Preamble to enlarge the dominion of government beyond the enumeration itself, although not to confer plenary power. Madison’s public position, ascribed to him by Crosskey, was that substantive powers are defined by specifying their number, kind, and application. On the contrary, Sorenson’s explanation is that (1) Madison perceived the Preamble of the Constitution as prescribing a limited number of limited ends; (2) the enumeration defines those ends more precisely; (3) the general welfare and other clauses that make up the Preamble vest particular powers beyond the enumeration, but only to accomplish the limited ends; and (4) the particular powers thus vested can be identified only through an examination of the enumerated powers themselves, in their relation to the authorized ends. - the foregoing sourced from post#93 of the following thread:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3aa699b23882.htm

ThJ1800's post#111 in the above thread expounds upon the foregoing quite eloquently. I intuitively perceived the general welfare clause in accordance to the second defninition of the word "welfare" as presented below from the 1828 edition of Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language:

It is clear that Article 1, Section 8 refers to general welfare of the United States as a whole, and not individuals in particular. Moreover, Article 4, Section 4, is clearly refering to the States, and so it only seems natural for the application being to society as a whole. Sadly I see now that this interpretation belies the intent of the Founders. It is clear to me now that the present liberal carte blanche check view of the welfare clause was being elucidated by Justice Joseph Story (in the first sentance cited). In that the enumerated powers don't actually delegate anything, but "expound the nature and extent and application of the powers actually conferred by the Constitution". Nevertheless, there's still a vast difference between either Madison's public or private opinions and Story's interpretation. My view lay with Madison's private opinion concerning the matter. Blood of Tyrant's post #25 (from the above referenced thread) nails the origin of the status quo exquisitely:

Franklin Roosevelt's Supreme Court, eager to expand federal power, declared (in United States vs. Darby,1941) that the 10th "states but a truism that all is retained which has not been surrendered." In other words, the states and the people were entitled only to powers the federal government hadn't claimed. The court substituted the telling word "surrendered" for the Constitution's word, "delegated." You "delegate" power to an inferior; you "surrender" power to a superior. This ruling, by draining the 10th of any force, inverted the whole federal structure, reducing the states to vassals of the federal government.
The fact of the matter remains, that if but for the welfare state as we know it today, unfettered recreational drug usage would be scourge on this country (far more devastating than what is being experienced at present). And as BVW has previously mentioned, the impetus to pass Prohibition Ammendment was directly related to the horrors caused by alcohol abuse. And that's my argument against legalized recreational drug use in this day, at this time. The reality of the matter is that no politician would stand a snow-ball's chance in hell standing on a platform of rolling back Social Security (let alone eliminate it), rolling back Senior Citizen drug program (let alone eliminate it), rolling back public education (let alone eliminate it), curtailing building of infrastructure (roads, etc), let alone eliminate it. Cut welfare/medicare/medicaide? Will never happen. The ship of state has turned so much since 1833, the people having discovered how to vote themselves largess out of the public treasure it would be political suicide for any politician to attempt to place their hand upon the tiller to move the ship of state back upon its original course.

While my argument does constain an emotional element, its not exclusively an appeal from emotion as such, in that I see the victims as being people, and I regard the value and dignity of human life to be something more than merely trash to throw into the dumpster. I wish that things could be different, that people would be responsible enough for their own destiny, however after over 100 years of liberal indoctrination/conditioning, that's absolutely not the case anymore. The whole status quo really is truly an utter travesty.

159 posted on 05/12/2006 3:44:33 PM PDT by raygun
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To: raygun

We cannot edit posts. The system does not permit it.


160 posted on 05/12/2006 3:53:13 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: raygun

In other words and in the language of rehabilitation, the current liberal programs and regulations are enablers that keep a sick society from reaching bottom so that it faces its ills with real and legitimate solutions that do not create more problems in other areas than they solve in the areas intended.

BTW, I'll take the public Madison and toss the other on the ash heap of history. No more contradiction.


162 posted on 05/12/2006 4:13:40 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: raygun

Your post needs editing. Feel free.


163 posted on 05/12/2006 4:15:04 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: raygun

Riddle me this - Does the New Deal commerce clause compromise the architectural integrity of the Republic, as laid out in the Constitution? If so, how important should maintaining that integrity be considered as providing for the general welfare?


165 posted on 05/12/2006 8:04:51 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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