Posted on 05/10/2006 6:28:01 AM PDT by bondjamesbond
Read how comprehensively St. Paul develops the truth that the Church is the Body of Christ:
1 Corinth. 12"There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit....
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 1For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body...
Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?
But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
This shows that the Church is an organized body. We don't all have identical roles.
Rev. 2:7, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The Spirit teaches the chuches.
Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."
The Spirit has appointed overseers, shepherds for the flock.
1 Tim 3:15T The Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth
The truth is entrusted to the church, not to each sheep going its own way.
Eph. 4:4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
The Church is not a disorganized swarm of single-celled organisms, like a billion plankton drifting about in the sea. The Church is one body: the Body of Christ, organized into structures, each structure (hand, foot, eye) having a different function inthe one one body. A Christian must "think with the Church," the "one body" spoken of with such dramatic effectiveness by St. Paul.
There's no support here for the view of "every man for himself."
I don't disdagree, but this is only a partial truth; and as long as it remains partial, it's distorted. Jesus Christ founded a Church to carry on his mission to teach, to govern, to sanctify, a visible Church of which He is the invisible head. This church is intended by Him to function as His body here until He comes again.
So start your own church, dumbass.
A church is a body of Christian believers in an area and the members of all churches are the body of Christ. Like my tag line, the churches, including the Catholic church, make the church. Each individual is the repository of the Holy Spirit because each one is human.
That the leadership of a church governs is a consent of the governed, not a requirement of God, because He gave each individual the tools to be self governing.
God made each of us so that we don't need our relationship with God defined for us and our spiritual path in life. Where the rubber meets the road, our salvation is our responsibility. Every man for himself in the sense that nobody can do it for him.
And you can prove that...how?
Nice job. Sullivan makes a play for the muddle-headed, and needs to be refuted.
Oh, more like an inference than proof. I don't know what would be called proof.
You use "church" to refer to a congregation and the building where they meet. But the definitions for "church" add up to a like minded group of religious people. The word "church" is just a sound that was assigned to that concept because people needed to refer to the reality. Grouping together, as in a church, is a natural human behavior. It just happens without anybody thinking about it.
People that are like minded on a certain point or points seek each other out and hang with one another. So Jesus would haven't "found" a church, as with the deliberate and willful act of "creating a church"; it would come about as a natural process of being human beings.
And I just assume that Jesus was understanding enough to know that process.
Uh... actually, no I didn't. I referred to the Church as the Body of Christ: we who are His "members" in this world.
"So Jesus would haven't "found" a church, as with the deliberate and willful act of "creating a church"
Uh... actually, yes He did. "On this Rock I will build My Church." (Matt 16:18).
"And I just assume that Jesus was understanding enough to know that process."
I assume that Jesus, understanding as He is, probably agrees with me...
:o)
A good evening to you, Mr. Terrell, and a good morrow as well.
Maybe Jesus was referring to a process He knew would happen when people started to hear and agree on His teachings, becoming like-minded. Being as how the like-mindedness grew from the gospel He was teaching, He would recognize what would happen.
Perhaps Peter, being single eyed and loyal to the teachings, was the type of person that would form the core of those who would hear the gospel and come together. Perhaps Peter would evangelize creating a large number of like minded people.
The point is like-minded people come together of their likemindedness. Jesus would know full well how human beings work. We know human beings work like that because they do now, and have in recorded history.
Individuals come together and form a church "for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21) and God is the guidance and fountain of knowledge and understanding for each person. Part of that guidance and understanding is seeking others who are brothers.
OK. Yes. But would you deny that "part of that guidance and understanding" is seeking, not just brothers, but "the leaders and teachers appointed by God"?
1 Corinthians 12:28-29
And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
I'd like to see credentials for the "the leaders and teachers appointed by God". I haven't been impressed so far. Note: that a man or woman, or the organization to which they belong, says they are appointed by God does not impress me.
According to the New Testament, were the Apostles appointed by Christ? According to the New Testament, do the Apostles have successors?
BTW, you haven't refuted or even discussed the logic in my prior posts; you leave out all those parts. When will you address it?
Would you like me to repost it all?
On the other questions: Why not repost one or two points at a time?
I require credentials, beyond self testamony, otherwise the natural connection with God within each individual charts that individual's course.
I only had one point about a "church" and individual determination. Go back and read. They weren't long posts.
You accept no authority? You think the church was a Christ-founded, Apostle-structured community until the death of the first-generation successors of the Apostles, and then became a "community" of atomized individuals? Each one of whom was equally well-equipped to determine doctrine, even if they disagreed with thousands of other equally-well-equipped individuals?
That's not how it actually happened, historically. If I believed that way, I'd call it "Missusdonnoism." And I'll admit, it has its advantages. You never need to accept any truths bigger than your own hat-size.
I accept the authority of God and HIs Son Christ Jesus. I follow His law and His teaching. That is sufficient.
What is all this about "doctrine"? The way to live is well documented in the Bible we have. The Urim and Thummim are alive and well in each heart.
I accept the truths that are made known to me so long as they square with the foundational principles in the Bible, and the teaching of Jesus found therein. What else do I need?
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