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To: The Shootist

Look at the intricate design all around you. Do you realize, for example, that a bat's sonar is so sophisticated that we don't fully understand its mechanism? Evolution says this is a random mutation -- from inorganic matter to boot.

There is none so blind as he who will not see.


18 posted on 05/08/2006 2:43:15 PM PDT by Elpasser
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To: Elpasser
Look at the intricate design all around you.

Argument from assertion.

Do you realize, for example, that a bat's sonar is so sophisticated that we don't fully understand its mechanism?

Argument from incredulity.

Evolution says this is a random mutation --

Demonstration of an incomplete understanding of the subject (note: it is more than a product of random mutation).

from inorganic matter to boot.

This statement is false.
22 posted on 05/08/2006 2:59:19 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Elpasser
Evolution says this is a random mutation -- from inorganic matter to boot. There is none so blind as he who will not see.

Read the follow:

In addition, experiments have made it clear that many mutations are in fact "random," and did not occur because the organism was placed in a situation where the mutation would be useful. For example, if you expose bacteria to an antibiotic, you will likely observe an increased prevalence of antibiotic resistance. In 1952, Esther and Joshua Lederberg determined that many of these mutations for antibiotic resistance existed in the population even before the population was exposed to the antibiotic — and that exposure to the antibiotic did not cause those new resistant mutants to appear.

Random mutations happen all the time. I am confused why you would disbelieve it given the proof of antibiotic bacteria among other things.

33 posted on 05/08/2006 3:16:23 PM PDT by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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To: Elpasser
Do you realize, for example, that a bat's sonar is so sophisticated that we don't fully understand its mechanism?

What does that mean? All mammals, including bats, have the same sound processing hardware. The mechanisms of echo-location (which humans possess, incidentally) and aural spatial processing are quite well understood. It is the reason we can artificially induce the experience in humans using off-the-shelf computer technology and slightly clever software algorithms.

The difference in "bat sonar" resolution among mammals is mostly a function of phase discrimination sensitivity, which involves some trade-offs in neuron wiring. Very high resolution phase discrimination requires dedicating a lot of hardware and neural paths, so critters that do not strictly need it tend to dedicate less hardware to the task at the cost of reduced discrimination. The difference between "bad" and "excellent" phase discrimination in mammals is several orders of magnitude timing precision due almost entirely to neuron wiring.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to where the mystery is now that I think about it. It is a relatively straightforward case of two-channel signal processing, with all the flaws and weaknesses implied. We understand it so well that we can very convincingly fool and spoof mammalian brains. Bats, cetaceans, and humans have some of the higher precision sound processing cortices, the microbats (the best) exceeds human phase discrimination by about two orders of magnitude. Some types of fish have phase discrimination that exceeds that of microbats by another order of magnitude or two, but they are also using different biological hardware.

39 posted on 05/08/2006 3:24:39 PM PDT by tortoise
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To: Elpasser
Do you realize, for example, that a bat's sonar is so sophisticated that we don't fully understand its mechanism?

Do you realize, for example, that evolution routinely produces results so sophisticated that we don't fully understand them? Congratulations, you just bolstered the case for evolutionary origins of bat sonar.

Evolution says this is a random mutation

Wrong, evolution says that random mutation is only one *component* of the process which produced the bat's sonar system. Were you sleeping in high school biology class?

353 posted on 05/25/2006 1:05:53 PM PDT by Ichneumon (Ignorance is curable, but the afflicted has to want to be cured.)
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