Eurofigher Has Answered (Q and A: Eurofighter or JSF for Norway?)

(Most of the article consitsted of Q and A in English afer a Norwegian-language introduction. I informally translated the introduction. This is the Eurofighter programs representative answering Norwegian public questions regarding his fighter. It follows an earlier article in which a USAF Colonel did the same re. JSF)

The Eurofighter is Europe's largest defense industry cooperation project. Aughorities and industry in Germany, Itlay, Spain and England have developed the figher they hope will give air superiority in Europe or decades to come.

David R. Hamilton, marketing director for Eurofigher has deliverdthe following offer to Norway: 48 planes for approximately 35 billion Norwegian Crowns. The exact price isn't yet revealed, but he promises an offset agreement for 30 billion Crowns.

Greece, Autstia, and Saudi Arabia have already decided to buy European fighters. In the first round there will be 638 Eurofighters produced.

I contrast to the American Joint Strike Fighter, the aircraft is already in production and operational in several air forces. Eurofighter beleives this is a clear advantage, and that Norway is guaranteed to avoid buying a "cat in a bag".

- I have no faith that the USA can deliver their JSF cheaper than us. And I'll bet my pension that ours won't be twice as expensive as any other plane in this class, he says.

He isn't frightened that JSF gets stealth features and would be more modern than Eurofighter.

- Our aircraft is the best for Norway. Remember that the only allied plane shot down in the war in Bosnia was a Stealth bomber.

The net meeting has concluded. Read the answers from David R. Hamilton of Eurofighter below.

Does the Eurofighter only come in grey, or do you deliver other colours as well?

Anyway, I think the plane is cool! Innsendt av: Jørgen I've been through the remaining questions and believe that after 6 hours on line that I've answered most of them in one way or another.

I'd like to thank you for the interest you have shown and Dagbladet for the opportunity to get the facts out in the open.

Perhaps some time soon they could set up a live session where you could come along and ask questions in person to Col Harris and myself. You could then directly compare our answers and judge for yourself which aircraft would be best for Norway?

Grey has been found to be the best compromise camouflage colour for day/night and air to air/air to ground ops.

Of course if a study came up with another colour better than grey then of course Norway could paint their Eurofighters in this colour.

Finally, I understand Col Harris answered that you wouldn't want a pink JSF. Why not? - if it is truly invisible then the colour would not matter!! David Hamilton

For countries like Norway, that have to train their pilots in the US, beacuse the knowledge of fighter aircrafts are limited here.. how would this be if we go with the EuroFighter. Where do we train or pilots then? Innsendt av: Finn Krokeide You can still carry out initial and advanced training in the US.

what do you think about norwegian women? Ever shagged one? Innsendt av: tobbe I think they will make excellent Eurofighter pilots David Hamilton

What features in this plane justifies it being, on paper, almost twice as expensive as a more modern stealth jet? Granted, the americans have never been good at staying below projected costs, but there's still a NOK 15 billion gap between the JSF and the Eurofighter.

Seeing as how the swedes are offering a very similar jet for free, provided cooperation in development of weapon systems, what elements in the deal justifies a financial lift that heavy? Innsendt av: Willy André Bergstrøm 51.

Let's see what the real price of JSF will be in 2013. In 1999 it was quoted as $28M, the US GAO says its now $66.2M. Wonder if the US would be prepared to sign a fixed price contract today on Col Harris's figures?

The Swedes offer the Gripen for free seems a good deal. Wonder how they can do this - is it perhaps because they have surplus aircraft sitting on the ground? Wonder how much the leasing fee will be?

how would you compare the stealth capabilities of the eurofighter to those of the JSF? And will the eurofighter be able to outperform the JSF in other areas? Innsendt av: ex. f-16 technichian 50.

Eurofighter has stealth techniques applied e.g. the engine face is shielded. Eurofighter is not LO or VLO like the JSF and F-22 respectively.

Mr Hamilton, let me start by thanking you for meeting the public in this way. I have a few questions for you on the Eurofighter, touching on capabilities and delivery-times.

1. The Eurofigher is being developed in three versions, named Tranche 1, Tranche 2, and Tranche 3. As I understand it Tranch 1 is an air-defence variant with only an austere air-to-ground capability, the latter being added incrementally in Tranche 2 and 3. Which version is being offered for Norway?

2. Does Eurofighter's bid for the Norwegian contract include integration of specific Norwegian systems, such as the Norwegian Strike Missile (NSM), a low-observable SSM under development?

3. Assuming Norway orders Eurofighter, what would be the likely dates of Initial Operational Capability, and of completion of deliveries?

Answers to your questions: 1. Tranches are production batches not related directly to technologies.Norway will receive the "standard" applicable at delivery date.This will be exactly the same standard as your NATO allies - the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain.

3. Norway can receive Eurofighters from 2012 (they have asked for 2016 first delivery). The aircraft will be fully operational on delivery the IOC date will be a matter of when pilots are trained and ready to be declared operational.

The Eurofigther have promoted themselves as better option then JSF. Why is that? What can Eurofigther offer to Norwegian industry that JSF not can offer? The Eurofigther is already built, that means all new technology is "old" news in Eurofigther. How can your Eurofighter overcome JSFs technology?

JSF has delivered nothing worthwhile to Norwegian Industry. Ask Norwegian industry and the UNions who has delivered.

What is the cruise speed of Eurofighter, does it have supersonic cruise speed? What is the top speed? and what is the maximum range?

Eurofighter can supercruise - supersonic without afterburner. This is achieved above M1.2(exact figure is classified).

F-22 supercruses at a higher speed but we have never claimed to match the F-22 - we are acknowledged to be second only to the F-22 (but are half the price - at the very least)

Both JSF and Eurofighter are great planes. What does Eurofighter have that sets it apart from the alternative? And being as most Norwegians prefer to think of their airforce as a defensive military measure, not one meant to engage in wars overseas, what adaptions can be made to make Eurofighter ideally suited to the Norwegian geography and climate? Innsendt av: Petter Ulleland 46.

Execpt perhaps to integrate the NSM if Norway require it. We have already carried out preliminary studies on this and anticipate no difficulties. Finally, if you are purely defensive then you need the best fighter.

Which operational advantages would Eurofighter Typhoon offer, compared to JSF? Innsendt av: Bjørn Benjaminsen 46.

Thank you for this question - it has been asked previously so please see earlier answers.

The Eurofighter is accused by suporters of JSF to be based on old technology, thus not reflecting the new generation of figher planes. What are your thoughts on this, seen in light of the American offer? Innsendt av: Simen

They were given 6 extra weeks to respond - which I find amazing given Norway has had a representative in the JSF programme for the past 4 years.

SAAB nor Eurofighter needed the extension and responded within the original timeframe of 28th March (we worked over Christmas). David Hamilton

Sir! I am an aircraft enthusiast on my neck, and i have followed the Eurofighter project over many years. I think it is very impressive that Great Britain, Germany, Italy an Spain now is able to produce and put in service what is probably the most advanced and best figther aircraft in the world at present, a Spitfire for th 21st century it is sad. My qestion is: What kind of status will Norwegian high tech industrie have in the Eurofigther project? will Norwegian high tech industrie be able to be a partner in the project? Innsendt av: Tor Erik Mork 44.

Norwegian industry already is getting access to high technology through the IPA with Eurofighter.

As Tom Burbage stated you won't get a price on JSF until 2013 - so how do they know Eurofighter will be "twice the price"?

It would be fair to assume that a large company has more know-how than a small one. How would you argue that Eurofighter can produce a weapon of the same level of sophistication as the much larger companies producing JSF? Innsendt av: Svein Berge 42.

The Eurofighter consortium is made up of BAE Systems, EADS (Germany and Spain)and Alenia. Combined we are much larger than Lockheed Martin (and Boeing)

EADS on its own includes is Airbus, Astrium, Eurocopter, A400M, Meteor, Galileo and Ariane etc. David Hamilton

By the time Norway is ready to actually make the switch to new fighters, the Eurofighter will be more than ten years old, whereas the JSF will be brand new. Why should we settle for a plane that's already past its prime? Innsendt av: Richard F. 41.

As stated previously, Eurofighers delivered to Norway will have the latest technology included. All fighters are updated during their service lives - this will apply to the JSF as well. If not JSFs delivered in 2018 will be "old technology" 10 years into their sevice life!

Hello Mr. Hamilton. This might be a silly question, but what about the rest of Scandinavia, do they buy planes from the USA, or other countries/companies?? I see several countries have decided to buy from Eurofighter, so what in the name of God is stopping Norway from being "patriotic" towards the EU, and don't trade with a "troubled country"??? Innsendt av: michael 40.

Scandinavian countries (not Sweden) have traditionally received from and bought from the US (F-84,F-86, F-104, F-5, F-16 etc).This has been successful in the past, but you are right, it's time for a change. David Hamilton

In the interview on Monday 1. May in Dagbladet, you claim that the only allied plane that was shot down in the Gulf war was a "Stealth bomber". Is this the exactly word you gave to the journalist? If that is the case, how can you be so misinformed? Or is this a plain case of propaganda? You must surely know that the only stealth aircraft ever shot down in combat was a F-117 that was shot down by Serbian forces over ex-Yugoslavia in March 1999. Innsendt av: Håvard Z 39.

(2) Will Eurofighter be as adaptable for joint operations with US Air Force as JSF? - if not, what will be the differences? Innsendt av: Arne Grønn 38.

JSF will have some technological advantages, but it is operational capability which counts not just technology per se.

Eurofighter will be interoperable with US JSFs - it is a contarctural requirement in the UK for this to be so. David Hamilton

How do you feel to sell advanced combat aircraft to Saudi Arabia, a country that kills homosexuals because they are homosexuals, and that is one of the most oppressing regimes in the world? Innsendt av: Håvard Z 37. This question applies equally to the US, France etc etc.

It is a matter for politicians to resolve so I believe it would be inappropriate for me to comment further.

The Typhoon lost out to the Rafale and F-15 "Mud hen" in the Singaporean contest recently, because Eurofighter could't guarantee the level of ground attack capabilities that the Singaporean air force wanted. If the RNoAF want a multirole fighter, why would the Typhoon be better than the F-35? Innsendt av: Håvard Z 36.

Eurofighter lost in Singapore because we could not deliver the required capability within their timescale - 2008. We could have delivered in 2009, but the Singaporeans wanted a guarantee for 2008.

Historically, read "Submarines", return contracts has been granted in large sums but, with conditions that products are "price compatible" with european products. This has only to a small degree been "found" to bee the case and generally no contacts has been awarded. Whats new? Innsendt av: Kåre R. Nilsen 35.

Eurofighter has a reputation for delivering on its commitments. Currently we have delivered 100% on our IPA development contracts.

The development of the flight software for the Typhoon has been protracted and known to contain "black holes" in the flight regime. Has all "black holes" been worked out? Innsendt av: Håvard Z 34.

This is normal for such an advanced software. The "black holes" are sorted on Eurofighter.

If the Eurofighter had to fight a stealthy but otherwise equal in performance adversary, wouldn't the Eurofighter be at a disadvantage? Or if targeted by ground radar? Innsendt av: Frode Liland See answer 33. David Hamilton

That thing is horrifying! It can't stand a chance againts Join Task Force! What's your best argument for Norway to still buy it!? Innsendt av: The Stig 32.

If the Eurofighter had to fight a stealthy but otherwise equal in performance adversary, wouldn't the Eurofighter be at a disadvantage? Innsendt av: Frode L 33.

Et problem med JSF, er at det norske militæret ikke får full tilgang til kildekoden som styrer flyet. Vist dette fortsatt stemmer, så virker der for meg mildt sagt rart. Militært utstyr som man ikke har 100% tillgang og innsyn i, er utstyr som man ikke kan stole på, og som igjen er utstyr man ikke kan bruke. Vil det norske militæret få innsikt i flyets systemer, slik at de selv kan validere og eventuelt modifisere? Tenkter bla, da på flyets kildekode. Innsendt av: TS.Lura 31. This is not a problem only for Norway.

The UK which has invested $2 BILLION into JSF (Norway $125 Million)is concerned about this too. Their Minister of defence has raised this issue with the US!

See Tom Burbage's (Vice President of Lockheed Martin) article in Janes IDR April 2006 which gives the facts on this issue. David Hamilton

I think the future is for unmanned aircrafts... why should Norway not keep their F16's and develop own technology towards unmanned fighter/bomber? Why the JSF? Innsendt av: trond 30.

Politically it maybe preferable to have a man on the scene to defuse the situation.

By the way it is acknowledged that UCAVs will not be cheaper than manned fighters (if you want the same capability).

Why not buy russian ? ...it's much cheaper. And it can take a "beating". I.e. the mig 29. Both the jsf ond the eurofighter can be brought down by a computer-virus. Innsendt av: Yochim Bèle 29.

Russian fighters such as the SU 30/35 are indeed very effective - but are notoriously expensive to maintain.

I've seen Russian press reports which want Norway to buy JSF rather than Eurofighter - it will cause Russian aircraft less problems.

In February, a RAF Eurofighter suffered a problem with its nose gear during landing, and was subsequently severely damaged. Rumours are that this is caused by a fundamental problem in Eurofighter's computer system, that makes it very unstable. What is your comment on this? Innsendt av: Endre Lunde 28.

A RAF Eurofighter did indeed suffer a nose gear problem. The fault has been fixed - otherwise Eurofighters would all be grounded - they are not.

By the way a F-22 recently had it's canopy cut open to let the pilot out! These things happen.

The stealth technology must have some use, or the Americans wouldn't develope it further. What does the Eurofighter have that can make up for not having the stealth technology, other than the price? Innsendt av: kaare 27.

Stealth certainly is an advantage - but this will be eroded with the fielding of anti-staeath technology (ask the Chinese).

Because eurofighter knows it will be detected it has the most advanced integrated and effective defensive aids system.

Interesting to know what JSF will do in the future when it is detected. David Hamilton

How can the eurofighter match JSF's multirole capabilities, based on almost 10 years older ideas/technology and no or limited stealth characteristics? Innsendt av: Lars Holten 26. Lars, See answer number 10.

JSF's multi-role capilities are limited when carrying internal loads. When carrying external loads - for close air support etc - it is no longer stealthy!

JSF vil ha bedre stealth egenskaper en F-117 Nighthawk. Eurofighter har ikke stealth egenskaper det er verdt å nevne engang! I en duell mellom JSF og Eurofighter vil ikke Eurofighter oppdage JSF på sin radar mens JSF vil kunne skyte ned nesten ubegrenset mange eurofighterfly før de kan svare for seg. Hva er 48 eurofightere verdt, hvis 4-5 JSFere kan lage skrapmetall av hele hurven??!! Innsendt av: Johan 25.

Operational capability is a combination of many characteristics of which weapons load, aerodynamics, sensor capability, persistence, stealth are but some.

Eurofighter could use the data link to target JSF. Operations are not clear cut - ROE, fog of war etc. As a fighter pilot I'd rather be in a Eurofighter type aircraft when facing a Stealth threat than the other way around. David Hamilton

hva gjør deres tilbud bedre vs. gripen vedrørende innkjøpskostnader og vedlikeholdskostnader? Innsendt av: hugo 24.

Even though Austria had operated Swedish aircraft for over 40 years - best ask this question to Austria. David Hamilton

Norge BØR og MÅ støtte europeiske arbeidsplasser. Alt for EU ! Innsendt av: Alt for EU ! 23.

Eurofighter will deliver the required operational capabilities for NATO/Europe to assist our US allies when required. David Hamilton

At the first glance the JSF looks so much better (or modern/advanced?) than the Eurofighter.

I ask myself, is this only the first impression or is this also the reallity when digging further down into the designs, features and specifications?

So my question is, what are the main reasons for Norway to buy the Eurofighter instead of the JSF?

When Norwegian or Danish pilot's/technicians look closely at Eurofighter their first impressions on technology/capability also change. They see high technology being applied to give effective operational capability.

Your industry also see this too. Ask Ericsson, Thales, EPM, TRIAD, Kongsberg, SINTEF etc, etc. FFI also think Eurofighter will be as capable in meeting Norway's requirements (as JSF).

What is the peformance advantages for the new JSF aircraft compared with the "old" F-16 ? (Why should we replace the existing F-16 aircraft at all ?)

If I was the Norwegian Chief of Air Force I'd want to replace the good but ageing (and increasingly expensive to maintain) F-16 with the most flexible 21st Century fighter - the Eurofighter.

Norway I believe will need fighters to police/defend your territority including your energy assets which will increasingly become more and more strategically important as the world's energy demands increase.

Won't the longevity of the F22 outlive the EF2000 and thus making it a much cheaper and better alternative for Norway?

Which plane will have the best combat abilities in your "objective" opinion? Innsendt av: Howard Bjerke 20.

The F-22 was conceived in the same timeframe as the Eurofighter. Like Eurofighter it is now entering service - so both will be around for the next 30 + years.

F-22 will always be the better fighter but Eurofighter will be the better multi role aircraft and will always be cheaper. David Hamilton

Great Britain paricipates in the programmes of both planes. Will they choose one type, or go for both in the end? Innsendt av: Kristian 19.

The UK is buying the VSTOL version of JSF to replace the Harrier on 2 new aircraft carriers.

200 + Eurofighters will replace Tornadoes, Jaguars etc as multi/swing role fighters. David Hamilton

Considering Norways strategically problematic coastline, would not you consider the inferior range of the Eurofighter to be a serious drawback as compared to JSF? Additionally, considering recent international conflicts, would you not agree that this experience has demonstrated that the stealth capability and superior sensor systems of the JSF in future conflicts will prove far more valuable to Norway than the Eurofighters claim to air-to-air superiority? To me, dogfight capability simply does not seem to be what Norway demands. Innsendt av: Geir Sivertsen 18. Geir,

Eurofighter does not have an inferior range capability than JSF. Also who knows the operational demands in the next 20 + years. Who would have believed 20 years ago that the Warsaw Pact would fail, and Norwegian pilot's would be in Afghanistan bombing the Taleban! Never base the future on the past.

Eurofighter can police/defend the Barents Sea etc and contribute to coalition air to ground operations overseas.

Eurofighter's flexibility ensures it can adapt to changing threats/operational scenarios.

Eurofighter is not only a dogfighter - by the way the F-16 was originally "only a dogfighter" but has been adapted to be a multi-role aircraft. This is because the platform was designed right at the start (like Eurofighter).

There is a well known adage - you can make a fighter into a bomber not the other way around.

I know - I have 1000 hours on the Tornado ADV - which was developed from the Tornado bomber. David Hamilton

What advantages does the Eurofighter have over the Gripen from Sweden? To an untrained eye they look pretty equal in performance. And how will the Eurofighter be able to deal with an opponent with stealthy abilities, like the JSF? Innsendt av: Marius 17.

Gripen is a good but small aircraft which superficially might look to have similar performance. It carries less weapons, less sensors and is aerodynamically less capable than Eurofighter.It also uses US sourced technologies, radr, engines etc.

Eurofighter can detect JSF type aircraft using it's Infrared Search and Tracking system or through third party cueing via the data link. And of course visually (even at midnight in the North in summer!)

Rules of Engagement do not always allow "first look, first shoot" opportunities to be used. Sometimes, especially in crisis management/peacemaking operations, you will have to get up close and personal - STEALTH will not be of any use then but aerodynamics will. David Hamilton

What do you think is Joint Strike Figher's biggest advantage compared with Eurofighter?

Is it hard for the groundcrew and pilots to convet from F16 to Eurofighter? Innsendt av: nebzen 16.

JSF's current advantage is its radar STEALTH. (US version). However, counter-stealth technology is expected to be operational within the next 10 years or so which will degrade this current advantage.

Eurofighter's biggest advantage is that it is a balanced/flexible design which can adapt to changing operational trends and does not depend on a single facet (e.g. radar stealth) to survive/ be operationally effective

Eurofighter's defensive aids system (passive and active) includes a towed decoy (2), chaff and flares and ECCM and ESM to defend itself. This is all built-in/fully integrated from the start and does not take up any of the 13 weapon stations.

Eurofighter is also a swing role fighter. It can carry out air to air and air to ground operations in one mission. Even in an air to ground mission Eurofighter will carry 4 AMRAAM + 2 SRAAM as well as say 2 stand-off missles/ or 2x precision guided bombs (500kg). It also has a built-in gun (27mm Mauser)

Norway's IRST missile is already cleared for Eurofighter so Norway will not have to pay any integration costs (unlike on JSF)which can be considerable - especially if you wanted them to be cleared for internal carrage..

Conversion to Eurofighter will be no problem for either groundcrew or pilots (as long as they are computer literate).

Eurofighter is a carefree handling fighter which is easy to fly. This allows pilots to concentrate the tactical situation and to delivering weapons accurately. David Hamilton

Hvilke krav stiller dere til personlige egenskaper, evner og ferdigheter hos pilotene ? Innsendt av: Ole Christian 15.

Ole, The critical requirement for 21st century fighter pilots is for them to be able to think tactically and clearly as they receive so much information through the data link (part of net work centric capability).

On Eurofighter we do this through sensor fusion which shows the pilot what he needs to know in a clear and concise way. Sensor fusion takes all the information from the Eurofighter's on-board sensors - Radar, Infrared Search and Tracker (a passive system with the detection capability of an F-16 Radar), the Defensive Aids Subsystem (DASS), and off board information received via the data link. This is then shown to the pilot on his coloured displays including a helmet mounted display (which also has an off boresight capability and built-in night vision capability which projects an infra red image onto the pilot's visor.). David Hamilton

What is the best reason to buy the Eurofighter instead of JSF? Keep going! Europe is much better than the USA.

We need a stronger European aliance. Europe i best! Innsendt av: Torkell This will be my last answer until I return from my meeting with the RNMoD.

Thank you all for your very interesting questions. It's good to see Norwegians taking such an interest in the future defence of their country.

What I believe the US needs is European allies which have very capable weapons to assist the US when or if necessary.

This does not mean that you have to buy US weapons to be interoperable or network centric capable. Eurofighter will be both of these.

Eurofighter will also be able to defend JSF on operations when faced with other fighters such as the very formidable SU 30/35.It is acknowledged worldwide that Eurofigher is second only to the F-22.

What major advantages does the Eurofighter have over other modern fighter jets? Innsendt av: skrangel 13.

would your planes have a longer lifetime than the other planes? Innsendt av: aleks 12.

Eurofighter is designed to have a life of 30 years without having to have structural modifications (unlike the F-16 which needed a number of modifications to keep it flying) David Hamilton

Spør Joint Strike Fighter teamet det samme om Eurofighter, tør du svare? Innsendt av: Robert 11.

JSF will be better at bombing over Baghdad than Eurofighter - providing you get the US level of stealth.

Eurofighter would rather use a stand-off weapon such as TAURUS or STORMSHADOW and let the weapon take the risk! David Hamilton

The fact that you can offer the same price on the plane as you did in 1999 must be an weakness. When the plane is ready it will be with over ten year technology.

Will you offer Norway any kind of contracts that will give Norwegian idustry a boost like JFS is planning to do?

Why is your plane better suited to be the next Norwegian fighter? Innsendt av: loa 10.

Eurofighter operates a continuous technology insertion policy to maintain Eurofighter's operational advantage and reduce costs (e.g. replace old computors with new ones - and fewer).The design was made to cater for technology upgrades and power increase requirements.

The Tornado in RAF service receives technology upgrades right up to to date - and it is over 25 years old.

Eurofighters delivered to Norway in 2016 will have the lates technology inside - the same as all the other Eurofighters. This ensures interoperabilty!.

I cannot answer for JSF but Tom Burbage from Lockheed Martin has stated that non-US (and UK) JSFs would be less capable. see Jane*s IDR article.

With regard to industrial contracts I think if you asked Norwegian industry and the Unions, they will tell you that so far JSF has delivered no worthwhile contracts whereas Eurofighter has delivered 100% of its commitments so far.

We have also submitted our industrial package to the MoD on 28th March - in fact I will be having a meeting with your MoD, Air Force, FFI and industry at 13.00 today to discuss this very subject!

See answernumber 2 for why I think Eurofighter is best suited for norway. Remember though that Norway will decide what is best for them. I can only set down the facts so that Norway can make the right choice. David Hamilton

Will all the programmable circuitry on your fighter be delivered with open source software? So that the user can recompile and reprogram as he feels? Innsendt av: FlipFlap 9.

Yes, Norway will be able to access Eurofighter software. This will be done througha government to government agreement.

The RnoAF will therefore be able to modify for example certain countermeasure maneouvres if they wish. In Eurofighter there are no "no foreign" restrictions for NATO allies.

I read in the article that you wrote on the price of the Eurofighter as "the same as in 1999, and the same it will be in 2012". Shouldn't the price go down, or at least change, as new technologies become availabe, current technologies become cheaper to make and the planes become less up-to-date? Innsendt av: John Berntsen 8.

In principle yes, but materials cost more. e.g. the price of titanium has quadrupled recently. Note also that currency levels change over time.

The Eurofighter price is based on actual contract price for the 4 nations. It has maintained its approximate level despite the rise in material prices. We expect this to be the case in 2012 when Norway actually signs a contract.

Compare this to JSF which was quoted in 1999 to cost $28M, Col Harris says $47m, Tom Burbage of Lockheed Martin quoted $56m, the US GAO (Accountancy Organisation) has quoted $66.2m and the Australians think JSF will cost over $100m in 2012 timeframe!

Note also that Tom Burbage in his Jane's IDR April 2006 article stated that the price of JSF for a partner nation would not be set until 3 years before delivery (2016 in Norway's case)

What about the logistic (support and delivery of spareparts) if the choice is Eurofighter, rnoaf already has a good working system for the existing aircraft and will be utilized for JAS. Innsendt av: jostein bakke 7. Jostein,

Logistic support is a vital element in any weapon system - there's no point in having the best aircraft if it is unserviceable on the ground!

Eurofighter was the first European weapon system which put reliability, maintainability, and testability on an equal level to operational performance.

As a fighter pilot in the RAF I helped write the operational requirement for the Eurofighter and even a fighter pilot recognised the importance of having serviceabile systems on board and a minimal logistic support tail - especially for overseas deployments.

When I flew the F-4, half way through a mission usually only 2 radars in a 4 ship formation were working! Not good when you meet a threat!

Eurofighter's for the RNoAF will come with an integrated support system which Norway can utilise with 4 other NATO airforces UK, Germany, Italy and Spain.(and hopefully Greece and Turkey in the future).

Eurofighter will also be fully interoperable with the US - this is a contractural point with the UK for operations with JSF (which UK is buying for use on 2 new aircraft carriers.)

Finally, Eurofigher has what is called a two level maintainence system which greatly reduces the need for support personnel. e.g. a RAF Eurofighter squadron has 75 support personnel compared to 150 on a Tornado squadron.

I think you will find that the F-16 system will have to change if Norway bought JSF.

I would like to know what you believe is the advantages that the wurofighter has over the US plain ?

On the ground at take-off the Eurofighter can acelerate to 150knots within 500m and lift off. This is with a full air to air load.This takes 7 seconds from brakes off

Eurofighter can pull 9gs straight after take-off and has a turning circle which is 1/3rd that of the F-16 (which is a fine aircraft)

Given JSF's wing area of approx 42.7 square metres and thrust of 174Kn, compared to Eurofighter's 50 square metres and 180kn I believe Eurofighter will out perform JSF - especially as JSF weighs 12.5 tonnes empty weight compared to Eurofighters 11.6 tonnes.Wing area, thrust and weight define aerodynamic performance David Hamilton

How would you explain for the norwegian people how Eurofighter would be a better option for Norway than Joint Strike Fighter?

In this case, try to be neutral. In the norwegian terrain, whats the best option? Eurofighter or Joint Strike Fighter? Innsendt av: Andreas 5.

JSF will be a very good aircraft if your primary aim is to bomb Baghdad. See my answer number 2.

I believe Norway requires a fighter with the flexibility to defend your national airspace (including over the sea and your oil and gas fields)and to play a major role in UN sponsored coalition operations overseas. Eurofighter will be able to carryout all of these roles from crisis management operations, peacekeeping and war fighting missions when required.

The US "shock and awe" and "first look first shoot, first kill" philosiphies are not always the best response when you are tring to de-escalate tension before war starts. Eurofighter's capabilities are designed for this and all out war (if war cannot be avoided).

Norwegian terrain will be no problem for Eurofighter as it was designed to operate from bases in north Norway to the deserts of the Middle East

What kind of limitations do the Eurofighter have compared to the JSF, besides as stated, Stealth performance.

With a full war load Eurofighter has the same endurance as JSF. If you compare Eurofighter with a small weapon load (as JSF with internal carriage)and without external fuel tanks then JSF would have a greater endurance. However, endurance is only a part of the overall combat capability equation. Platform agility, weapons, and sensors all contribute to the overall combat capability of any weapons system. Eurofighter has a balanced capability across all of the required features. We do not depend on a single facet - like STEALTH, but our flexibility allows us to adapt to changing threats. What happens when counter STEALTH becomes widely available in 2020 timeframe?

While the JSF airplanes are modelled after the stealth-fighter F-22 Raptor, whilst not actually having the full benefits of the high-tech stealth capabilities that the Raptor have. Thus, it wont be a stealth-figher, but more an air superiority fighter.

While I am not very knowledgable about your Eurofighter Typhoon airfighters, or much of any fourth generation jet fighters, what is your opinion about what jet fighter type would serve the rugged landscape of Norway the best? Innsendt av: Eirik Steen-Olsen 3. Good question.

We normally don't get involved in 4th/5th generation arguements as we concentrate on delivering operational capability.

STEALTH is a complex subject and is not like the mvthical ring of invisibility in the Lord of the Rings. STEALTH is a combination of measures taken to reduce radar, visual, IR and noise signatures. There are therefore different levels of STEALTH. Eurofighter has stealth features to reduce its signature (it is 10% of the F-15 radar signature for example) but it is NOT in the same league as JSF which is classified as LO (Low Observable). F-22 and the B-2 are VLO (Very Low Observable) but cost $ hundreds of millions.However, when it comes to radar-stealth, yes, JSF is in a later generation, if you would use such terms. But as to visual stealth, IR stealth, acoustic stealth and network-centric capability, we are in the same generation.

Because we know we are not LO and therefore will be detected earlier than JSF we carry the most advanced Defensive Aid Subsystem (DASS)which includes active and passive countermeasures to jam enemy detection systems. Through the use of the data link we can also go "passive" and get targetting information from a third party (AWACS for example). This is part of our Network Centric capability which all combat air systems must have to operate in the 21st Century. Eurofighter was designed from the outset to be network centric. The British Air Force for example would not buy half of it's future combat force which was not network centric or not interoperable with the US and our other NATO allies!. David Hamilton

In short words, what makes the Eurofighter the better option? Is it better than the JSF?

Eurofighter is a very flexible weapons system which is best suited to meet the changing operational demands of the future.

The airframe was designed as a fighter with the ability to defeat all future threats in the air and also with the capability to attack ground targets either in Close Air Support missions to assist the Army or to attack high value targets at long range using stand-off missiles.

JSF will be a good aircraft to bomb Baghdad, if Norway gets the same level of STEALTH as the US. See article in Janes Defence Weekly - April 26, 2006 which clearly states that the US will not export key technologies such as STEALTH. Also Mr Tom Burbage from Lockheed Martin clearly stated the same in his article in Janes International Defence Review April 2006.

I was surprised that Col Richard Harris said that Norway will get the same version as the US when it is not the USAF which decides export policy, but the Low Observables Committee (LO-EXCOM) which is made up of senior Pentagon leaders including representatives from the armed services, intelligence agencies and all major STEALTH programmes.

Hvordan skal dere konkurrere med svenskene på pris? De skal jo kaste flyene sine hvis ingen vil kjøpe dem. Innsendt av: Espen von Streng Hæhre 1. Good morning Espen,

Difficult if they give them away! In Austria we beat the Swedes on price, performance and Industrial package! David Hamilton

"Does the Eurofighter only come in grey, or do you deliver other colours as well? Anyway, I think the plane is cool!"

- - - - - - - - -

Boy, I bet all the bean counters on the JSF team are kicking themselves for letting them get talked into all the latest technology stuff. All they needed was a few gallons of yellow paint and a "cool" emblem up front and sales would have gone through the roof.

norwegian women
what do you think about norwegian women? Ever shagged one? Innsendt av: tobbe I think they will make excellent Eurofighter pilots David Hamilton

Features

Features: You can always tell a Norwegian woman--but you can't tell her much!

Some of them are quite attractive, I hear tell...

Cheers!

"what do you think about norwegian women? Ever shagged one? Innsendt av: tobbe I think they will make excellent Eurofighter pilots David Hamilton"

The answer from the Eurofighter programs representative is as interesting as the question. If the west continues to degenerate so, Chinese men won't have a shortage of women after all.

We need to stop pandering to every sensitivity behind crocodile tears and start toughening up, IMO.

the cost will be more.it will be able to do more.

The JSF's target price was originally supposed to be around 29-35 million bucks. It then went to 45 million. Then it went to around 60 million per plane, and if the USAF cuts down on the number it wants that price will go up higher. The plane is still being worked on, and thus that provides more opportunity for costs to go north. Add to this that there have been cost blowouts, and in 2004 it was reported that the total projected cost had gone up by 23%.

Anyways, the F-35 will hopefully have smooth sailing. And I hope that there are no cuts in the number the various US forces (in particular the USAF's purchase of the F-35C), otherwise the JSF may suffer a similar experience to the F-22 Raptor (the first President Bush's administration wanted 750 Raptors, which would have had the Raptors costing around 50 million dollars a pop ......cheap compared to what they are going for now. By the end of his administration he had cut the number to 648. Then during Clinton's tenure that number was progressively cut to 339 airframes. During the current Bush's administration this number was further cut to 277, and then further snipped to the current 183 airframes. Now a single F-22 Raptor goes for around 330 million dollars a pop. From 750 planes to 183, and from 50 million a plane to 330 million. The rule of numbers).

If the JSF doesn't watch its waistline, and if enough of them are not purchased, then expect the price to go up. One thing that is for sure is that it will definitely not be going at the price it was originally slated to sell for, and that the final figure will definitely be greater than anything currently stated.

The question then becomes how cost-effective the stealth provided by the plane is when compared to the cost. Especially for nations like Norway that are not exactly going to be hunting Sukhois anytime soon (and which can get Western planes capable of doing that for a cheaper price).

Just got the following article today on some of the cost issues of the JSF, and it kind of adds to what I was saying about the real problem of cost (and the fact that Congress seems to be just making things worse). Again, it will be very interesting to see what the final cost of a JSF will be .....what is for certain is that it will not be the quote that was given in the late 90s. Anyways, here is the article:

May 8, 2006: The new U.S. F-35 fighter is coming under a lot of criticism as its price keeps rising. Currently, each one will cost, on average, about $113 million. Prices of less than half that are often mentioned, but that's just manufacturing cost. It's the development expense that is going up the most. Congress is so incensed that they are threatening to prevent the construction of the first five F-35s this year. That would delay flight testing, and drive up development costs even more. The F-35 is the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter) that would be used by the air force, navy and many allied nations. It would replace the F-16, F-18 and Harrier. It's a stealthy aircraft, using a lot of new technologies. But most of this new stuff has not been tested, and that's usually a sign that costs are going up even more.

The F-22 is already in service, and costs $170 million each just to build. Add in development costs, and you more than double that.

Link

"The F-22 is already in service, and costs $170 million each just to build. Add in development costs, and you more than double that."

I have a lay person's ignorant [yet honest] academic question for which I may be using inappropriate terminology: If aircraft X costs $300 mil per copy and there is reasonable certainty that it can achieve a kill ratio of 3:1 over aircraft Y which costs $200 mil per copy, wouldn't X be more cost effective?

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.