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Defending science education against intelligent design: a call to action
American Society for Clinical Investigation ^ | 01 May 2006 | Alan D. Attie, Elliot Sober, Ronald L. Numbers, etc.

Posted on 05/03/2006 8:23:06 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

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To: andysandmikesmom
"I hardly know which I think is the most scarey...that one actually acts like an 'Eliza' program, or that one cannot recognize an 'Eliza' program in progress..."

And how does that make you feel?
621 posted on 05/04/2006 5:37:50 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Ah, first you and I talk about the movie 'Jezebel', and now we are using 'My Fair Lady'....working 2 movies into the Crevo debat...shall we try for 3?


622 posted on 05/04/2006 5:38:56 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
The fact that you have no scientific objection to intelligent design tells me that you oppose it on purely emotional or philosophical grounds. At the same time you prefer to see the force of law brought to bear on your emotional, philosophical predelictions.

. . . to be able to gather objective evidence . . .

The most objective evidence is to have the crime repeated exactly as it took place. This cannot and does not happen in a court of law. Shame on you for equating the practices of criminal justice with the certitude of the repeatable, testable claims of science. Organized matter that performs specific functions is repeatable and testable, and is often and easily traced to the natural undertakings of intelligent beings. The big bang is not.

623 posted on 05/04/2006 5:42:29 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Scared.....that there are actually folks such as these, raising children and voting...both of which, to me, require one to having a deep understanding of the issues involved...yet, as I said, this expains some of the behavior and actions of people I know in real life, and even some here on FR...so I would say, that I am not surprised...at least now I have a 'name', so to speak, which very nicely describes such behavior...


624 posted on 05/04/2006 5:46:11 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: andysandmikesmom; CarolinaGuitarman; PatrickHenry
Testing if one can determine they are talking to an program or a human is called the Turing Test. So far... I seem to fail it.

I tried the javascript version from the link off of Wikipedia. The following is a real conversation:

* ID should not be taught in school
> Say, do you have any psychological problems?
* Yes, his name is Fester
> Names don't interest me.
* Me either what are you doing later?
> Perhaps in your fantasies I am doing later?
* So tell me is ID science or not
> Come, come, elucidate your thoughts.
* ID is faith based
> What does that suggest to you?
* it should not be taught in school
> Say, do you have any psychological problems?

625 posted on 05/04/2006 5:48:26 PM PDT by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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To: trashcanbred
. . . if you want to teach it in school what would you teach?

ID is a peripheral, tentative, general approach to science. Science can, has, and does operate very well under the assumption that an intelligent designer is behind those things science investigates. There is no need to introduce it as a special topic or even give it a chapter in science books, although this should certainly not be prohibted by law. All the hubbub we are witnessing is over a tentative, yet reasonable, proposal regarding the bigger picture we all enjoy as observers.

626 posted on 05/04/2006 5:49:19 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: DBeers
"It is odd that many leftists opposed to intelligent design support homosexual design and seek to teach all things faithful to the religion of homosexuality YET oppose any religious expression contrary to the homosexual world view..."

Why are you trying to change this thread into a gay agenda thread? Would it not be more useful to bring arguments for or against ID to the debate?

627 posted on 05/04/2006 5:49:55 PM PDT by b_sharp
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To: Fester Chugabrew
"The fact that you have no scientific objection to intelligent design tells me that you oppose it on purely emotional or philosophical grounds."

My objection IS scientific; ID is untestable, and therefore cannot by definition be scientific. No untestable claims can be scientific. You have only your feelings and wishes to back up your claims. Yet you want the state to push your unscientific, theological preferences on unsuspecting science students. It's the ID'ers who are the bullies. Not that you are an ID'er; you're a YEC.

"The most objective evidence is to have the crime repeated exactly as it took place. This cannot and does not happen in a court of law."

Gee, I wonder why... it's funny how they can come to any conclusions at all....lol

"Shame on you for equating the practices of criminal justice with the certitude of the repeatable, testable claims of science. "

Shame on you for being so dense as to still think that science has ever claimed to provide certitude. What an elementary error.

"Organized matter that performs specific functions is repeatable and testable,..."

And as heuristically important as a pile of dung.

"The big bang is not."

The Big Bang has already been tested, and more tests are still being done.

ID is untestable. As you have already admitted.
628 posted on 05/04/2006 5:51:24 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: andysandmikesmom
I wasn't asking you seriously how you felt; I was being a wise-ass and playing the part of an Eliza. lol

Sorry about that... :)

BTW, it frightens me too.
629 posted on 05/04/2006 5:53:24 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Science can, has, and does operate very well under the assumption that an intelligent designer is behind those things science investigates.

When? What subject does that? Quantum Mechanics? Particle Physics? Volcanology? Meteorology?

630 posted on 05/04/2006 5:55:50 PM PDT by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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To: ThinkDifferent
Why do you suppose this is?

Because we were intelligently designed to apply our reason and senses to the world we live in. That does not negate the problem of testing, i.e. recreating in a scientific context, the big bang and all the history that has ensued. We all apply our reason to infer from the evidence what that history is about. Empirical science, as far as I am concerned, is about the here and now; what can be seen by the eyeballs as it happens. Since we are creatures of history, we are bound to make extrapolations, and are limited to our experiences. That makes for a particularly tenuous, tentative arrangement when it comes to declaring what is, was, and ever shall be.

631 posted on 05/04/2006 5:56:38 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: trashcanbred

All of them can work under this assumption. It is merely a backdrop, just as no author of a book needs to have his name mentioned in every sentence.


632 posted on 05/04/2006 5:57:56 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
All of them can work under this assumption. It is merely a backdrop, just as no author of a book needs to have his name mentioned in every sentence.

You said all of them did work... not can

Don't you think you should ask the scientists who study in those fields if they agree first?

633 posted on 05/04/2006 6:00:11 PM PDT by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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To: trashcanbred; PatrickHenry
Wow... you really are an Eliza program.

Now try answering my question instead of creating a fantasy. You are most certainly not dealing with an Eliza program in my case, and you know it.

634 posted on 05/04/2006 6:02:56 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: trashcanbred
By the way since ID isn't faith based... how come only "one" Intelligent Designer? What proof is there that there is only one? Why not two? Why not 42??
635 posted on 05/04/2006 6:03:51 PM PDT by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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To: trashcanbred; PatrickHenry; CarolinaGuitarman

You know, this reminds me of the brother of a friend of mine...the brother had a low IQ...not severely low, because he was able to hold down a job, which was created in a company, which created a whole range of special jobs, for people who had very low IQs...these people were able to work quite effectively at these jobs, they were able to earn a salary, and also found themselves with friends, true friends with whom they could relate...

What always struck me as so impressive about this man, was that in spite of his very low IQ(I believe he was categorized as retarded), he was able to carry on meaningful conversations with people of normal to high IQs...yet, when I think back on it, I realize that perhaps what he was doing, was in effect, using the Eliza principle, in his ways of dealing with other people...he did seem to pick up on certain 'key' words, and zeroed in on them, without actually understanding the context in which those words were being used...to the casual observer, it would appear that he was able to carry on a normal conversation, and understand all that was being discussed...tho most people of normal IQ did realize within a very short time frame, that this young man, tho seeming to verbalize quite well, did not quite understand what anyone was actually talking about...

Please understand...I am in no way, saying anything bad about people with low IQs...to the contrary, what I am saying, is that the explanation of 'Eliza', does indeed indicate to me, how this young man was able to overcome any problems that his low IQ might bring to him, regarding conversation with those of normal IQ


This is very interesting to me...


636 posted on 05/04/2006 6:05:05 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Duh...and I was too dense to catch on...shame on me...


637 posted on 05/04/2006 6:06:10 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: Fester Chugabrew
"Shame on you for equating the practices of criminal justice with the certitude of the repeatable, testable claims of science."

And just which tests are these?

"Organized matter that performs specific functions is repeatable and testable, and is often and easily traced to the natural undertakings of intelligent beings"

Please supply some examples of "organized matter that performs specific functions" that is not the result of human action.

638 posted on 05/04/2006 6:06:28 PM PDT by b_sharp
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To: trashcanbred
Sheez. Yes. I used the past tense. Ever heard of Isaac Newton? Galileo? Far be it from me to suggest intelligent design must serve as a recognized backdrop in order for science to happen. Far be it from you to allow intelligent design into any public academic, scientific context. Indeed, you'd like to use force of law to prevent it.
639 posted on 05/04/2006 6:07:11 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Well... you did ask if "Science was made of organized matter". Isn't that a funny question? I was asking about an Intelligent Designer, if he was made of organized matter. It seems you answered my question with another question. You should answer mine first.

By the way since ID isn't faith based... how come only "one" Intelligent Designer? What proof is there that there is only one? Why not two? Why not 42??

640 posted on 05/04/2006 6:08:59 PM PDT by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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