Posted on 05/02/2006 2:20:36 PM PDT by US admirer
You can't help yourself can you? Play the antisemite card when your arguments are vapid. The SOP of the indignant jew who can't bear criticism- cry antisemitism. You are so so predictable. You do yourself justice.
Now shoo, go away and don't bother me again.
You can count on me shining the light on you, bothering you if you will, anti Semite, every time I catch you and other similar bugs crawling out from under your rocks.
"You are right. They have not beheaded anyone... "
Oh dear L-rd, please tell me that you're joking?
Are you seriously referring to Rabin's murder as a proof of 'massacres committed by the haredim'?
There have been no massacres perpretrated by Orthodox Jews. The orthodox don't murder. They destroyed someones property, computers are not people.
The murder of Rabin is a extremely complicated case: the infiltration of militant zionist groups, and the set up of Yigal Amir by the government was proven in court. These people firstly were not Haredim (religious), and secondly this is an isolated case of violence.
Please go to bed early tonight and promise not to act like a totally sophomoric child referring to religious Jews as Ultraorthonuts! ? Guns being their favorite method for dispaching heathens!?! LOL (don't sleep too deeply because maybe the ultraorthonut contingency here on FR will track you down and dispatch you in your innocent heathen sleep...)
LOL
Shalom, indeed! I see others have taken up the cause here:
Any neutral observer can easily see the hatred that oozes out of your writing.Look in the mirror.
ML/NJ
I'm wondering when you checked. Have you ever been there?
The roads that people don't want others to drive on on Shabbat like through Mea She'arim were blocked by saw horses when I was there. We also routinely do the same in NYC on Sunday and sometimes other days for all manner of "festivals."
ML/NJ
I knew you were referring to Baruch Goldstein.
I'd like to tell you a few things concerning that event, and other ones somewhat comparable, but where the roles were reversed.
Baruch Goldstein was a paramedic. I have a friend who has been one for a few years now. She tells me that the time that it takes for her to recover from picking up pieces of fellow Israelis, riddled with nails, limbs missing, people missing... She was on the site of the religious bus leaving the kotel that evening... I couldn't stop crying hearing her stories and the kids and their reactions... well, she says that she has to kind of isolate herself from her family, and that her recovery time is getting shorter, but it's just unfathomable. In any case, Baruch Goldstein had been doing the same work, couldn't handle the injustice and decided to take revenge. Murder, I agree.
Do you know what happened to him when the surviving Arab worshippers subdued him? Guess.
They ripped him to shreds.
Now lets see another example, the recent bus massacre.. (I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the details), in any case the Israeli Arab was subdued by other passengers, and then guess what? He was held until the authorities arrived.
I'm not going to call you anti-Semitic, I don't really think that you are. It's just the extreme weight you gave to this one horrible incident is so out of relationship with the hundreds of Arab bombers.
I just think that you're misinformed.
As for your claim that he is revered as a 'martyr' by some of his co-religionist. That is absolutely untrue. (Where on earth do you get your news?) The most generous thought that I'd heard concerning his act is that he snapped. That there was some understanding of his mental state, cleaning up murder site after murder site. That, yes.
There is no such thing as this martyrdom script among Jews.
Your response is puzzling if not disturbing.
I appreciate your concern that I am just “misinformed” and not an anti-Semite. Let me see if I can convince you otherwise on the former count without changing your mind on the second.
In your original post you stated without equivocation that “There have been no massacres perpetrated by Orthodox Jews” yet I your follow-up post you claim to know that I was “referring to Baruch Goldstein” – the ultra orthodox jewish assassin who killed 29 people. How could you know about his case and state that “There have been no massacres perpetrated by Orthodox Jews”. I’ll forgive you for not providing a response to that question as I think you will recognize there is no credible one.
On the other hand, perhaps there is an explanation as your recounting of details of his case are so seriously mistaken perhaps you did not really know I was talking about him. For example you sates that he was a paramedic. That is incorrect. He was a physician. More importantly he was a racist pig who despite his Hippocratic oath refused to treat any non-jews, long befor3 he committed the atrocity in Hebron.
From wikipedia:
Born in Brooklyn, New York to an Orthodox Jewish family, Baruch Goldstein was a direct descendant of the Baal HaTanya, Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi, the founder of the Chabad Lubavitch movement. His family also had close ties to modern-day Israel, as members of his family were killed in the Hebron riot of 1929. Goldstein attended the Yeshivah of Flatbush religious day school, Yeshiva University and Albert Einstein Medical School. He was a charter member of the Jewish Defense League, founded by Rabbi Meir Kahane and, like many of his Zionist peers, looked forward to making aliyah and contribute to Israeli society. After emigrating to Israel, he served as a physician in the Israeli Defense Force, first as a conscript, then in the reserve forces. Here, he gained notoriety for refusing to treat non-Jews, even those serving in the IDF.
When Goldstein was threatened with court-martial he declared:
I am not willing to treat any non-Jew. I recognize as legitimate only two [religious] authorities: Maimonides and Kahane.[1]
Even more troubling is the confidence in the accuracy and of your assertions. To remind you your words were:
“”As for your claim that he is revered as a 'martyr' by some of his co-religionist. That is absolutely untrue. (Where on earth do you get your news?) The most generous thought that I'd heard concerning his act is that he snapped. That there was some understanding of his mental state, cleaning up murder site after murder site. That, yes. There is no such thing as this martyrdom script among Jews.”
While I don’t wish tpo embrass you further, although I’m afraid that will be one consequcne of my response, it is necessary to correct you, particulary when you are so adamant that my claims are “absolutely untrue”. As to where I get my news, well I think I should be asking you that question in view or the reapated errors in your posts.
For the record, the following account is from Reuters News Service on June 17, 1998:
KIRYAT ARBA, West Bank -- Moving a wet rag in delicate swirling motions, Rachel Novoselsky, a Jewish settler, wiped the dust from the stone slab over the grave of Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinians in the West Bank town of Hebron in 1994.
"He was a righteous man, a great hero," Novoselsky, a Russian immigrant, 61, said about Goldstein, a U.S.-born physician. He was beaten to death by Muslim worshipers who survived his shooting spree in the holy Tomb of the Patriarchs.
For Novoselsky and some other residents of Kiryat Arba, next to Hebron, Goldstein's grave has become a place of pilgrimage. The site contains a large headstone, an altar and a bench on a plaza of stones.
But the shrine could be declared illegal when a new "Law Prohibiting the Erection of Memorials to Terrorists" takes effect at the end of the week.
The legislation, sponsored by left-wing opposition lawmaker Ran Cohen, calls for the minister of defense to instruct regional commanders in the West Bank to remove all but the grave and tombstone from a memorial to a "terrorist."
However, a move against Goldstein's grave is likely to inflame passions among Hebron-area settlers, regarded as some of the most militant in the West Bank.
"There's going to be big trouble," said Novoselsky, shaking her head when asked what would happen if authorities tried to chip away at the shrine.
Goldstein's headstone points toward Jerusalem, signaling the direction of prayer for those who come to stand beside it and worship on an unshaded octagonal stone plaza.
A plastic cup of water is next to the grave - some pilgrims believe that drinking from it brings good luck.
An altar with memorial candles and a cabinet containing holy books and a coin slot for charity are on the perimeter of the grave site.
Flowers and a dozen saplings struggle to grow in the parched earth, a few yards from a dirt road ringed by barbed wire.
There is a lone bench, but for the Goldstein faithful this is a holy place where one stands to honor a savior.
"The Arabs wanted to make a pogrom, and he made sure that Jews would live," Novoselsky said, repeating the words Goldstein's defenders have used since he opened fire at Muslims kneeling during prayers at a mosque.Novoselsky visits the site twice a week, and her ritual is a study in devotion.
Bowing, she touched the headstone and kissed her hand before putting into a yellow bucket the small stones which Jews traditionally place at a grave to mark their visit.
The woman then watered the flowers and saplings, lit a candle and read softly from a book of psalms.
After each psalm, Novoselsky put a coin in the charity box.
Moving back to the headstone, she chanted afternoon prayers, ignoring the sudden cacophony of competing calls to worship blasting from loudspeakers on minarets in nearby Hebron.
David Wilder, a spokesman for Jewish settlers in Hebron, said that, as a religious community, they did not want anything done that could desecrate a grave site.
He said he did not think violence would erupt if authorities tried to remove the book cabinet or altar, but he added: "We don't have control over everybody."
At the Goldstein grave, Novoselsky was at a loss for words when asked what she would do if the army moved in to remove the altar, bookcase and bench.
She simply fell to her knees, then prostrated herself to demonstrate how she would hold on to her holy ground.
Alternatively you could return to wikipedia for even more disgusting behavior by hassidim supporters of the ultraorthonut Goldstein:
Gravesite and commemoration
Goldstein is buried at the Meir Kahane Memorial Park in Kiryat Arba, a Jewish settlement next to Hebron. The park is named in memory of Rabbi Meir Kahane, Goldstein's spiritual mentor. The Goldstein family had requested that he be buried in the ancient Jewish Cemetery of the Martyrs in Hebron, but this request was denied.
Goldstein's tombstone reads:
Here lies the saint, Dr. Baruch Kappel Goldstein, blessed be the memory of the righteous and holy man, may the Lord avenge his blood, who devoted his soul to the Jews, Jewish religion and Jewish land. His hands are innocent and his heart is pure. He was killed as a martyr of God on the 14th of Adar, Purim, in the year 5754 (1994).
Over the years, the site became a pilgrimage site for those with right-wing political leanings. The Local Religious Council of Kiryat Arba declared the gravesite a memorial and a properly constituted cemetery. Sidewalks, spotlights, streetlights, a cupboard with prayer books and pedestals with candles were installed by supporters. Many of these were paid for by Dov Dribben. Eventually, the site had the appearance of a small shrine.
Incensed by the homage being paid to Goldstein, the government sought to have the mini-shrine declared illegal. A bill was passed by the Israeli Knesset in 1998 forbidding the erection of monuments to people whom it considered terrorists. This led to a long battle in the High Court of Israel, which the government ultimately won. In 2000, several hundred police were dispatched to dismantle the shrine. After a battle with Goldstein-supporters that lasted several hours, resulting in many arrests, the appurtenances around the grave were dismantled.
At the time, it was also declared that a discussion of the inscription on his tombstone was pending, however no revisions have yet been made (as of 2006).
A support group, the Friends of Baruch Goldstein, hold celebrations and yearly feasts in commemoration near the gravesite.
I will tell you despite the Ultraorthonut supporters who suggest otherwise you are correct that I am not anti-Semitic unless those semites (jewish or arab) are nuts, criminals or baby abusers. Despite what some of the mental midgets on this forum might try to infer I am equally opinionated and critical about christian nuts. It is interesting that I have previously, on this forum, detailed my debt to Jews (my professional mentor top who I owe my professional success is Jewish) and I once dated a wonderful Jewish woman to whom I remain a close friend.
I am most critical however of the muslims as they are not only the greatest immediate threat due to their numbers but also because of their sheer barbarism. Anyone who cared to review my posts would confirm this.
So, while I believe you are a reasonable person, I hope as you reflect on this post you will exercise even more caution in formulating conclusions based on beliefs rather than fact.
US Admirer,
It is this taking thing out of context and misinterpretation that is disturbing here:
Of course I know about Baruch Goldstein, and of course I knew that you were referring to him. Guess how?
You write above in a post to ML/NJ:
"...or perhaps you are unaware of massacres committed by religiously inspired haredi in Israel"
There are no massacres as a rule, there was one case. To make of one case a general rule is quite disturbing.
Now, the fact that I would refer to a doctor who was working as a paramedic 'a paramedic' most people would let pass, but this seems quite important for some reason.
From one nut you make a general rule and form an opinion of an entire religious segment of the population. I can tell you personally, that I don't agree with his views and I know that his act was murder, but how can you turn a situation of obvious mental distress and denigrate a people?
Kehana-niks are a minority within a minority. Your claims of 'some of my best friends are jews' proves your prejudices. Anyone can appreciate a good jewish aquaintance. But from that safe place to disparage a whole group of Jewish religious followers really does reek of antisemitism.
You're line of reasoning reminds me of a recent legal decision in France.
There was a big upheaval concerning the wearing of certain headscarves in public buildings. The recognition of the Frence government that the integration of the muslim population was a huge failure led to this law, really just reinforcing the basic goal of 'laicity', or a strong non-religious public life. But in order to cover themselves the law prohibits:
Over-sized crosses (pendants, pins)
and the wearing of Yalmukas.
The real truth is the danger to french values shown by the ostantatious wearing of the muslim head-scarf, but to sound evenhanded they have to bop christians and jews over the head with a law that never needed to be applied to them.
Anyway, to sum up, Thank G-d for Baruch Goldstein, for without him you would have no source whatsoever for your religious Jew bashing views.
It's not some of their best friends, it seems to always be an old Jewish girl friend. The number of times I have read a good old fashioned anti Semite write about his former wonderful Jewish girl friend is astonishing. WOW, I hope there is no cause and effect. ;-)
Nevertheless, you see the anti Semite in that all Jews they want to disparage seem alike. He rails against those who would overturn computers and throw rocks at cars violating the Sabbath, the Haredi, as he then condemns the nationalists in the same screed. Anyone with any actual knowledge knows that the groups couldn't be more different as the Haredi are frequently anti State.
He comes at the issue with no knowledge, only with hate. Sorry, there is some knowledge. He knows that one Jew, seeing the lack of response to Arab terror after after terror, went postal. Now he can condemn many segments of Jews to being just like the Islamics who are marching around the World threatening and killing infidels.
I would condemn a Jew too. That phantom girl friend who didn't recognize an anti Semite. If I believed she existed.
Now, don't going trying to drag logic and research into this! You know that isn't tolerated.
You seem to have a fixation on Orthodox Jews. Why?
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