Posted on 04/27/2006 6:26:15 PM PDT by spanalot
Was General Patton's death the result of a traffic accident or was he the victim of an assassination plot? (By Stalin)
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
"If you consider mass-murder of civilian populations "good use" of an atomic weapon, then I would think you need a psychiatrist. "
I checked your previous posts and can't imagine how you have come to be so predictably leftist with this one.
Now that you have finished your name calling, let me remind you of the terrible losses WE suffered taking Iwo Jima when the Jap "was starving, had very little fuel, and it's industries were deprived of raw materials."
Your attempt to shrug off the far greater losses WE would have suffered taking the mainland is beneath contempt.
The bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was not "terrorism" - it was righteousness.
Unlike the leftist marxists who spawned your silly arguments, the US has not made a habit of colonizing its vanquished. We conquered Germany and Japan, killed their leaders, and converted their followers to Good Democracies.
We could have done the same to Russia - and prevented the GENOCIDE OF 50 MILLION- had we listened to Patton.
"Seems to me we're lucky Uncle Joe decided to stop when he did."
Who says he stopped? Cuba? China? Greece, Middle East, SouthEast Asia?
And are you the one that called my country (that resurrected Germany and Japan) FASCIST?
Great summary, two comments, one minor, one less so.
First, the 17-pounder was a 76.2mm gun. 90mm guns weren't hitting the inventory until the M26 Pershing tank and M36 TD.
Second, in your artillery comparison, while the Soviets had a huge advantage in artillery tube count, it was the sophisticated U.S. fire control systems that really gave our artillery its advantage. This is a case where quality can be a big win over quantity, since you can get a similar effect with many fewer tubes, and not have the maneuver and logistical difficulties entailed with so many more tubes.
Otherwise, you're spot-on.
"Patton is immortal--in that amazing speech:"
This seems to be a pretty accurate transcription of the whole thing - no wonder Stalin was scared of him.
http://www.pattonhq.com/speech.html
..................
By now the rumor had gotten around that Lieutenant General Simpson, Commanding General of the Fourth Army, was to be with General Patton. The men stirred expectantly. Two of the big boys in one day!
At last, the long black car, shining resplendently in the bright sun, roared up the road, preceded by a jeep full of Military Police. A dead hush fell over the hillside. There he was! Impeccably dressed. With knee high, brown, gleaming boots, shiny helmet, and his Colt .45 Peacemaker swinging in its holster on his right side.
Patton strode down the incline and then straight to the stiff backed "Guard of Honor". He looked them up and down. He peered intently into their faces and surveyed their backs. He moved through the ranks of the statuesque band like an avenging wraith and, apparently satisfied, mounted the platform with Lieutenant General Simpson and Major General Cook, the Corps Commander, at his side.
Major General Cook then introduced Lieutenant General Simpson, whose Army was still in America, preparing for their part in the war.
"We are here", said General Simpson, "to listen to the words of a great man. A man who will lead you all into whatever you may face with heroism, ability, and foresight. A man who has proven himself amid shot and shell. My greatest hope is that some day soon, I will have my own Army fighting with his, side by side."
General Patton arose and strode swiftly to the microphone. The men snapped to their feet and stood silently. Patton surveyed the sea of brown with a grim look. "Be seated", he said. The words were not a request, but a command. The General's voice rose high and clear.
"Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of bullshit. Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. You are here today for three reasons. First, because you are here to defend your homes and your loved ones. Second, you are here for your own self respect, because you would not want to be anywhere else. Third, you are here because you are real men and all real men like to fight. When you, here, everyone of you, were kids, you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the toughest boxer, the big league ball players, and the All-American football players. Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor will ever lose a war; for the very idea of losing is hateful to an American."
The General paused and looked over the crowd. "You are not all going to die," he said slowly. "Only two percent of you right here today would die in a major battle. Death must not be feared. Death, in time, comes to all men. Yes, every man is scared in his first battle. If he says he's not, he's a liar. Some men are cowards but they fight the same as the brave men or they get the hell slammed out of them watching men fight who are just as scared as they are. The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared. Some men get over their fright in a minute under fire. For some, it takes an hour. For some, it takes days. But a real man will never let his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood. Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best and it removes all that is base. Americans pride themselves on being He Men and they ARE He Men. Remember that the enemy is just as frightened as you are, and probably more so. They are not supermen."
"All through your Army careers, you men have bitched about what you call "chicken shit drilling". That, like everything else in this Army, has a definite purpose. That purpose is alertness. Alertness must be bred into every soldier. I don't give a fuck for a man who's not always on his toes. You men are veterans or you wouldn't be here. You are ready for what's to come. A man must be alert at all times if he expects to stay alive. If you're not alert, sometime, a German son-of-an-asshole-bitch is going to sneak up behind you and beat you to death with a sockful of shit!" The men roared in agreement.
Patton's grim expression did not change. "There are four hundred neatly marked graves somewhere in Sicily", he roared into the microphone, "All because one man went to sleep on the job". He paused and the men grew silent. "But they are German graves, because we caught the bastard asleep before they did". The General clutched the microphone tightly, his jaw out-thrust, and he continued, "An Army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horse shit. The bilious bastards who write that kind of stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real fighting under fire than they know about fucking!"
The men slapped their legs and rolled in glee. This was Patton as the men had imagined him to be, and in rare form, too. He hadn't let them down. He was all that he was cracked up to be, and more. He had IT!
"We have the finest food, the finest equipment, the best spirit, and the best men in the world", Patton bellowed. He lowered his head and shook it pensively. Suddenly he snapped erect, faced the men belligerently and thundered, "Why, by God, I actually pity those poor sons-of-bitches we're going up against. By God, I do". The men clapped and howled delightedly. There would be many a barracks tale about the "Old Man's" choice phrases. They would become part and parcel of Third Army's history and they would become the bible of their slang.
"My men don't surrender", Patton continued, "I don't want to hear of any soldier under my command being captured unless he has been hit. Even if you are hit, you can still fight back. That's not just bull shit either. The kind of man that I want in my command is just like the lieutenant in Libya, who, with a Luger against his chest, jerked off his helmet, swept the gun aside with one hand, and busted the hell out of the Kraut with his helmet. Then he jumped on the gun and went out and killed another German before they knew what the hell was coming off. And, all of that time, this man had a bullet through a lung. There was a real man!"
Patton stopped and the crowd waited. He continued more quietly, "All of the real heroes are not storybook combat fighters, either. Every single man in this Army plays a vital role. Don't ever let up. Don't ever think that your job is unimportant. Every man has a job to do and he must do it. Every man is a vital link in the great chain. What if every truck driver suddenly decided that he didn't like the whine of those shells overhead, turned yellow, and jumped headlong into a ditch? The cowardly bastard could say, "Hell, they won't miss me, just one man in thousands". But, what if every man thought that way? Where in the hell would we be now? What would our country, our loved ones, our homes, even the world, be like? No, Goddamnit, Americans don't think like that. Every man does his job. Every man serves the whole. Every department, every unit, is important in the vast scheme of this war. The ordnance men are needed to supply the guns and machinery of war to keep us rolling. The Quartermaster is needed to bring up food and clothes because where we are going there isn't a hell of a lot to steal. Every last man on K.P. has a job to do, even the one who heats our water to keep us from getting the 'G.I. Shits'."
Patton paused, took a deep breath, and continued, "Each man must not think only of himself, but also of his buddy fighting beside him. We don't want yellow cowards in this Army. They should be killed off like rats. If not, they will go home after this war and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed more brave men. Kill off the Goddamned cowards and we will have a nation of brave men. One of the bravest men that I ever saw was a fellow on top of a telegraph pole in the midst of a furious fire fight in Tunisia. I stopped and asked what the hell he was doing up there at a time like that. He answered, "Fixing the wire, Sir". I asked, "Isn't that a little unhealthy right about now?" He answered, "Yes Sir, but the Goddamned wire has to be fixed". I asked, "Don't those planes strafing the road bother you?" And he answered, "No, Sir, but you sure as hell do!" Now, there was a real man. A real soldier. There was a man who devoted all he had to his duty, no matter how seemingly insignificant his duty might appear at the time, no matter how great the odds. And you should have seen those trucks on the rode to Tunisia. Those drivers were magnificent. All day and all night they rolled over those son-of-a-bitching roads, never stopping, never faltering from their course, with shells bursting all around them all of the time. We got through on good old American guts. Many of those men drove for over forty consecutive hours. These men weren't combat men, but they were soldiers with a job to do. They did it, and in one hell of a way they did it. They were part of a team. Without team effort, without them, the fight would have been lost. All of the links in the chain pulled together and the chain became unbreakable."
The General paused and stared challengingly over the silent ocean of men. One could have heard a pin drop anywhere on that vast hillside. The only sound was the stirring of the breeze in the leaves of the bordering trees and the busy chirping of the birds in the branches of the trees at the General's left.
"Don't forget," Patton barked, "you men don't know that I'm here. No mention of that fact is to be made in any letters. The world is not supposed to know what the hell happened to me. I'm not supposed to be commanding this Army. I'm not even supposed to be here in England. Let the first bastards to find out be the Goddamned Germans. Some day I want to see them raise up on their piss-soaked hind legs and howl, 'Jesus Christ, it's the Goddamned Third Army again and that son-of-a-fucking-bitch Patton'."
"We want to get the hell over there", Patton continued, "The quicker we clean up this Goddamned mess, the quicker we can take a little jaunt against the purple pissing Japs and clean out their nest, too. Before the Goddamned Marines get all of the credit."
The men roared approval and cheered delightedly. This statement had real significance behind it. Much more than met the eye and the men instinctively sensed the fact. They knew that they themselves were going to play a very great part in the making of world history. They were being told as much right now. Deep sincerity and seriousness lay behind the General's colorful words. The men knew and understood it. They loved the way he put it, too, as only he could.
Patton continued quietly, "Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin", he yelled, "I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
"When a man is lying in a shell hole, if he just stays there all day, a German will get to him eventually. The hell with that idea. The hell with taking it. My men don't dig foxholes. I don't want them to. Foxholes only slow up an offensive. Keep moving. And don't give the enemy time to dig one either. We'll win this war, but we'll win it only by fighting and by showing the Germans that we've got more guts than they have; or ever will have. We're not going to just shoot the sons-of-bitches, we're going to rip out their living Goddamned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun cocksuckers by the bushel-fucking-basket. War is a bloody, killing business. You've got to spill their blood, or they will spill yours. Rip them up the belly. Shoot them in the guts. When shells are hitting all around you and you wipe the dirt off your face and realize that instead of dirt it's the blood and guts of what once was your best friend beside you, you'll know what to do!"
"I don't want to get any messages saying, "I am holding my position." We are not holding a Goddamned thing. Let the Germans do that. We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy's balls. We are going to twist his balls and kick the living shit out of him all of the time. Our basic plan of operation is to advance and to keep on advancing regardless of whether we have to go over, under, or through the enemy. We are going to go through him like crap through a goose; like shit through a tin horn!"
"From time to time there will be some complaints that we are pushing our people too hard. I don't give a good Goddamn about such complaints. I believe in the old and sound rule that an ounce of sweat will save a gallon of blood. The harder WE push, the more Germans we will kill. The more Germans we kill, the fewer of our men will be killed. Pushing means fewer casualties. I want you all to remember that."
The General paused. His eagle like eyes swept over the hillside. He said with pride, "There is one great thing that you men will all be able to say after this war is over and you are home once again. You may be thankful that twenty years from now when you are sitting by the fireplace with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what you did in the great World War II, you WON'T have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, "Well, your Granddaddy shoveled shit in Louisiana." No, Sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, "Son, your Granddaddy rode with the Great Third Army and a Son-of-a-Goddamned-Bitch named Georgie Patton!"
The reason he mentioned it was to say that although it may sound ridiculous to us now, the Germans really were hoping for the Americans and Russians to turn on one another.
He also says the Americans then shot down a large number of the Russians. He commented that this was never reported in the media.
On paper the Russian and American air forces may have been similar and the performance of their planes was much better than generally thought but the American pilots must have been superior.
This would lead me to think the American air force would have destroyed the Russian one fairly quickly, then could have turned on the Russian ground forces.
At that time, air superiority was a deciding factor, and I think just about everyone agrees on that.
I have been googling eye witnesss reports and came upon this troubling report.
Go to page 72 - this contradicts most of what is published.
http://pattonhq.com/pdffiles/magazines.pdf
http://pattonhq.com/pdffiles/magazines.pdf
WOW - go to page 122 and there is an admission by a Douglas Bazata who was with the OSS who admits that Patton was assassinated . Also wacky wwebsites indicate that Bazata declared same at a big public function covered by the Wash Post.
Go to page 123 -
check prev. post
Thanks. I had heard that his neck and/or back was broken, and he was paralyzed. I remember thinking, "He wouldn't go on living like that."
Sorry, you're still wrong.
Nuclear weapons are not military weapons, they are political ones; this means they have far more value when used as a threat than when actually deployed.
Despite your assertion that had Patton been given the green light to try and steamroll Russia that 50 MILLION lives would have been saved, I counter with the fact that 100 MILLION lives were lost in aftermath of the Second World War and the Cold War WITHOUT the use of nuclear weapons.
Russia alone suffered 20 million casualties in the conventional war that took place between 1941-45 and still had the wherewithal to continue fighting (and winning) had Germany not surrendered and ended the thing.
Your argument, if I get this right, is that a country that was capable of losing 20 million people and still mustering the strength to fend off Germany and subjugate half of Europe would have been stopped, and then defeated, by an American army less than half it's size, with no allies capable of providing support, and with the Russians enjoying superior tanks, a comparable air force and interior lines of supply?
Nonsense.
You further surmise that the same country with 20 million casualties suffered in conventional fighting would have blanched at the thought of losing another 10 million or so due to atomic warfare. I never realized Uncle Joe was such a warm and fuzzy dictator underneath the gruff, brutal exterior.
As for "predictably leftist"; I didn't realize intellectual honesty, based upon historical fact, was a leftist quality. I was always under the impression that leftists were born liars who believed honesty was something the proletariat needed to be protected from. Realistically, despite atomic bombs and despite your confident insistance to the contrary, Patton would have lost so badly as to leave the security of THIS country (never mind the nations of Europe) an open question.
Had your assertions been correct, there would have been no need for NATO. If your vision of the aftermath of the Second World War, and it's realities, bore any relation to real life, we wouldn't be arguing it now: it would have been done.
Yes, the atmoic bomb was the most powerful weapon of it's day but, you cannot win anything with a nuclear weapon. It's not a weapon of "morality" nor does it leave anything worth holding when all is said and done. It does not advance a political agenda, take hold or ground, or advance a particular point of view, system of government or lifestyle. It destroys things, utterly and completely, and when used is a signal of frustration and a tacit admission that the enemy cannot be overcome by more "civilized" means. At least not at a price that anyone is willing to pay.
And to use your own argument against you again; even with atomic weapons 50 million people still died. So, what did your wonder weapon actually accomplish in terms of morality or making a potential adversary think twice about going to war in the first place? If your argument is that the bomb "saved lives" (either in it's use or threat)I'm not sure you would want to argue that point with the ghosts of those that died regardless of it's existance.
Your argument is simplistic (all you have to do is kill enough of the enemy and you win) and does not take into account the realities facing Allied commanders in 1945 and beyond. If I didn't know any better, I'd also bet you're one of the "Mitchell was right" crowd who believes that "strategic" air power also helped win the war, or that the combination of the "strategic" bomber and nuclear arms was an unbeatable one.
History has proved you wrong on all counts; Patton could not have taken on the Russians, the Bomb would not have that task any easier, strategic bombing was nothing of the sort, and that somehow, a country that could already reduce cities like Dresden, Schweinfurt and Tokyo to ashes (killing more people than both atom bombs combined) with man-made firestorms was somehow still "righteous" when it came to atomic weapons.
Like I said, the Presidency of Iran awaits you with that kind of mindset.
PS; where did I call MY Country (not just yours) Fascist?
I would hate to think I spent all those years in the US Navy serving a Fascist cause.
Or is it only people who have the temerity to prove you wrong (and cite actual facts while they do it) fascists?
While we're at it: first I'm a leftist and then I'm a fascist? Go figure. Get yourself a dictionary of political terms, study it, and then leave the discussion of history and politics to us adults.
Works for me :-)
My apologies perhaps- I confused you with post 124.
And the "Z" in Nazi stands for socialist, so lighten up.
In any case, you grossly over estimate the resolve of the Russian army - and underestimate ours at the end of WWII.
Read the above posts links if you think we did not have Stalin's "Usefull Idiots" undermining this country.
AND HOW MANY WEEKS DID PATTON HAVE TO SIT ON HIS ASS SO THAT THE RUSSIANS YOU ADMIRE COULD "TAKE" BERLIN?
"Russia alone suffered 20 million casualties "
BS - Stop reading the NY Times.
The Poles and the Ukrainians bore the brunt of these "Russian" figures.
- and it was Ukrainian Freedom Fighters that killed the Stalingrad General that the Nazis tried to get for 2 winters. They along with the Poles and Patton would have crushed Stalins nuts.
Thanks.
I was under the impression the 17-pounder was a 90mm, but I guess I'm wrong. My bad, and thanks for the correction.
I did mention the fire control superiority of American artillery, but followed up with the extreme ammunition shortages of late 44 into 45. My assertion was that while Patton would have enjoyed a wonderfully superior weapon in his artilelry, he would not have had sufficient ammo to make effective use of it, particularly against the huge, massed formations the Russians would have thrown at him, and that with such a material shortage, the Russian advantage in numbers would have conspired against him.
Any technically superior weapon (or system) can be overcome if there are simply more targets than they are capable of firing at, or, if there are more targets than can be engaged with insufficient ammo. Had that been the case, Patton's superior artillery would have been sitting ducks for Russian counterbattery fire supplied by all those numerically-superior (but technically inferior) Russian tubes.
As for the logistical problems, that works both ways. However, the Russians had the manpower to overcome many of them, and would have been operating with ridiculously short, interior supply lines, while Patton was still tethered to the factories of America over 4,000 miles away.
"and that somehow, a country that could already reduce cities like Dresden, Schweinfurt and Tokyo to ashes (killing more people than both atom bombs combined) with man-made firestorms was somehow still "righteous""
I was wrong about apologizing - if you can't see the difference between Nazi/Japanese Despots and the US, you are hopeless.
And I am not going to suffer your "Iran" card foolishness gladly. The west bashing heritage of the middleast has its basis in the Kremlin.
And I am not going to suffer your
We had the A-bomb in 1945 -- they didn't for years -- case closed.
No, you were right to apologize, but are wrong in continuing to shoot the messenger.
"Morality" is not measured in terms of "our morality" (or anything we can twist to make it sound moral) being superior to "their morality". In terms of the destruction meted out by both Axis and Allies there were millions, caught in the middle and mostly innocent, that bore the brunt.
And yes, I do make a distinction between a "morality" that claims the bombing of unarmed civilians is a good thing because they happen to be "the enemy", and a "morality" that says those same people should be bombed because they're not members of the "master race" or do not follow the "bushido code". Murder of the innocent is still murder, despite the ultimate "good" achieved by it.
I'm sure there's many throughout the Middle East (which, by the way, it's hatred of the West is NOT a Kremlin plot; it is the result of an arrested, close-minded, and ultimatly failed culture. Islamic hatred of the West predates the Kremlin by centuries, my friend) who would have no problem excusing the nuking of Tel Aviv or Rome in the same terms of "morality" that you use. Since both visions of "morality" are based on ignorance and a flawed view of the world, how would an imaginary, disinterested party looking on decide which was more valid? The "morality" that engaged in mass murder as an expedient, or the "morality" that engaged in mass murder as a matter of poor politics disguised as religious faith?
I wish I could be as positive as you that EVERY LAST person killed at Dresden was a card-carrying Nazi by personal choice that would have followed Hitler to the grave, or that all those Japanese children vaporized at Nagasaki would have grown up to be Kamikazes, but I can't.
And stop with the Nazi/socialist/leftist/fascist remarks already. It's apparent you don't draw any distinction between them (and there is quite a number of distinctions), and that you use them so interchangably as to be ignorant of their true meanings. Educate yourself, please. It's getting embarrasing.
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