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Refineries and oil terminals are full, yet prices are rising
Asia News ^ | April 20, 2006 | Maurizio d’Orlando

Posted on 04/20/2006 1:17:48 PM PDT by NYer

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To: NYer

It's called capitalism. Speculators are pricing in the the war against Iran and disruptions in supply. Who can blame them. It takes two to tango in this deal. A buyer and a seller. If the price is getting bid higher, someone believes they can make bank. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't like free market capitalism, you are understandably mad. Otherwise let the market work. Sadly there is a caveat. the barriers to entry in the oil bidness are pretty high. That makes it harder to move the price. If we sold leases to independent drillers every day the price stays above a set peg, we could fight back against the supply scarers. Because just as the speculators price in the bad stuff that can happen, they'll also have to consider the good. Adding new leases and wells to the outlook can only help.


41 posted on 04/20/2006 2:06:53 PM PDT by kinghorse
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To: redgolum
I would love to see where the spec money is coming from.

It's not so much "spec" money as it is indexed money. The large banks are launching giant index and/or quasi-index funds that they are piling their clients into.

42 posted on 04/20/2006 2:07:42 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: mysterio

Two facts that you're missing. I learned these from the intellectual superiors on another thread.

1. Oil is a totally free market, and none of the players are manipulating or colluding to drive prices higher. It's only supply and demand and that's it.

2. If you are experiencing anything less than orgasmic joy that the CEO of EXXON just parachuted off with $400,000,000, then that means you're a communist. Even if it just makes you mad and you don't want the government to do anything about it.

Hope this helps. I hear legions of them coming to attack you in their intellectually superior way right now.




You always have a way of putting my thoughts into words better than I ever could. Bravo.


43 posted on 04/20/2006 2:08:38 PM PDT by The Foolkiller (BSXL* The year the NFL became irrelevant..)
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To: NCC-1701

price gouging should be a temporary phenomenon as new players see money to be mad and jump into the business. Problem is, this industry has become monopolistic. Barriers to entry in order to compete with the Exxons and Shells are really really high. So there's a monopolistic aspect that could be argued. when all the product's spoken for with sales contracts, it's hard to negotiate for a better deal. the only other defense is jacking up interes rates (reducing money supply) and killing the economy and therefore demand. That was the solution in 72.


44 posted on 04/20/2006 2:10:13 PM PDT by kinghorse
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To: mysterio

I'm surprised. It took until post#36. LOL


45 posted on 04/20/2006 2:14:27 PM PDT by The Foolkiller (BSXL* The year the NFL became irrelevant..)
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To: mysterio; itsahoot

mysterio, you hooked him. Now, catch and release rules require that you tell him you were kidding.


46 posted on 04/20/2006 2:16:17 PM PDT by Richard Kimball (I like to make everyone's day a little more surreal)
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To: NYer

If it were spec money, speculators would have taken profits by now - and prices would have significantly dropped.

There are other factors: loss of refinery output due to current maintenance, which should be completed by June; the cost of ethanol additives where required; and more overall demand from U. S., China and India.


47 posted on 04/20/2006 2:16:30 PM PDT by mtntop3 ("He who must know before he believes will never come to full knowledge.")
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To: NYer

If it were spec money, speculators would have taken profits by now - and prices would have significantly dropped.

There are other factors: loss of refinery output due to current maintenance, which should be completed by June; the cost of ethanol additives where required; and more overall demand from U. S., China and India.


48 posted on 04/20/2006 2:16:35 PM PDT by mtntop3 ("He who must know before he believes will never come to full knowledge.")
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To: Rodney King
The combination of hurricane-related repairs, normal seasonal maintenance (April is a so-called 'shoulder' month in which a lot of maintenance occurs every year), and the government-decreed switch to ethanol blending are all factors in the rise, right this minute. 30 days from now, the refining game will be considerably different; the last of the Katrina/Wilma damage will be off the books and the blending switch will be as complete as it will get this year.

However, 30 days from now, we will still be quite short of optimum capacity. Absolutely no one will start a new refinery under the current legal and regulatory regime. It's a lose-lose proposition until gov't gets the ecowhackos and the NIMBY crowd out of the way.

49 posted on 04/20/2006 2:16:44 PM PDT by SAJ
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To: Wristpin
Hoarding: speculators are not releasing stocks pending further price hikes.

There's actually a combination of factors:

a) the war-with-Iran risk premium;
b)the switch to ethanol and spring to summer refining gasoline 'blend' changes (massive waste of oil and lowers gas mileage to boot, but makes the air look cleaner to the unemployed);
c) speculation

Buying commodities to 'hedge' against a financial meltdown is like getting a hairdo to protect you from a gunshot to the head: commodity prices fall faster and further than anything else when there is an economic downtourn.

50 posted on 04/20/2006 2:20:54 PM PDT by pierrem15
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To: pierrem15

There's one more factor here that you didn't mention . . . nobody wants to sell oil for U.S. dollars unless they are getting a huge premium on those dollars -- because this nation's financial house is bordering on collapse.


51 posted on 04/20/2006 2:34:16 PM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: mysterio

We can be communists together.


52 posted on 04/20/2006 2:34:18 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Wristpin
Why would an oversupply result in crude prices going up?

It wouldn't, but the market doesn't exist in a time vacuum. The market is looking into the future. Oil is rising because people are buying up that surplus. Think Iran.

Another way to look at this is a Hurricane. It is due to arrive Sunday, so why are all the store shelves emptying out on Thursday? There's not really a food shortage. In fact everyone's pantries are fuller than normal.

Iran is driving this market.

53 posted on 04/20/2006 2:38:26 PM PDT by SampleMan
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To: SampleMan

Seems to me that they are looking for any excuse to ratchet up the price artificially. I don't see imminent hostilities with Iran.


54 posted on 04/20/2006 2:41:23 PM PDT by Wristpin ("The Yankees announce plan to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: ZULU
Do you see an Iranian War happening any time soon? I think they're using it as an excuse to drive up prices while there's actually a glut of crude.

The other claims about switching over mixtures, planned maintenance, summer driving coming and so forth happen every year and should not be driving prices to this extreme.

The bonus, if there is one, is Congress might get off it's bum and allow us to open ANWR for drilling.

55 posted on 04/20/2006 2:42:17 PM PDT by newzjunkey (America for Americans: No amnesty.)
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To: NYer

Putin has said that China has first dibs on Russian oil.


56 posted on 04/20/2006 2:42:27 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: NYer
Capitalism is based on competition. With all the recent mergers, (Exxon + Mobil), (Conoco + Philips), (Chevron + Texaco) to name a few, there is little, if any competition in the petroleum industry. When can you remember every station in a market charging the exact, same price?

I've read (and participated in) the FR threads where so many FReepers thought it was the greatest thing since the coming of Christ that Lee (12 chin) Raymond was receiving a $400 million golden parachute.

I think it's obscene. OK, I'm a commie, a right-wing one, but a commie.
57 posted on 04/20/2006 2:43:59 PM PDT by BW2221
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To: Shermy
Correct, energy, oil especially is the new "bubble" for stay at home money lusers.
first it was the dot com / stock bubble
then it was the housing bubble
now energy futures.
Once carpet bagging over seas speculators get involved the price goes up big time as they run their pyramid scheme to get in and short out
58 posted on 04/20/2006 2:44:44 PM PDT by Roverman2K
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To: Alberta's Child
this nation's financial house is bordering on collapse.

It might look that way from New Jersey but it certainly doesn't appear to be an accurate description of the nation's state.

59 posted on 04/20/2006 2:44:55 PM PDT by newzjunkey (America for Americans: No amnesty.)
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To: Alberta's Child
If that were the case, more oil producing countries would switch to Euros, but it isn't happening.

The Eurozone is both unstable politically and economically: riots in France, Italy on the verge of bankruptcy, mutterings of a coup d'etat in Spain, failed euro constitution, Russians threatening Eastern Europe's energy supplies to win political advantage, millions of alienated Muslims, and the occasional left-wing or fascist nut job flipping matches into the powder keg via political assasination or home-grown terrorism.

Makes the US look like la repubblica serenissima.

60 posted on 04/20/2006 2:50:16 PM PDT by pierrem15
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