Competition worries graduate programs

The Washington Post ^

[The Lion Roars]

Stewart said, there are plenty of reasons to be concerned, including international competition modeling itself after the U.S. system -- and getting stronger -- and high dropout rates in some graduate programs.

Then there is the issue of international applications. Relief swept the world of graduate education when the council recently released a report showing an increase in international applications. But what got lost in the excitement, Stewart said, was that the increase still doesn't make up for the decline in the past decade.

International applications are still down 23 percent from 2003, she said, at a time when foreign students receive most of the degrees in several fields. Twenty-five years ago, U.S. students made up about 78 percent of students receiving science and engineering graduate degrees. Today, it is about half. And foreign students who do come to study at U.S. universities no longer remain: Twenty-five years ago, 70 to 80 percent of foreign students stayed in the United States after receiving their graduate degrees, but now only 50 percent do.

"I really believe that it is highly unlikely that we will ever return to the point where we will have anything like the share of the international student population that we have today, or that we've had over the last years," Stewart said.

That is why she and other educators are calling for initiatives to appeal to foreign students and get more Americans to enter U.S. graduate schools -- and stay in the pipeline.

"As long as we can attract the best, domestically and internationally, we don't need to worry about the competition," Stewart said. "And we have a head start. So if we lose this, we deserve to lose this."

[Tzimisce]

"As long as we can attract the best, domestically and internationally, we don't need to worry about the competition," Stewart said.

Members of the Taliban and Hamas take note! We need you!

[Rockitz]

To be honest, it just doesn't pay to forgo 4-6 years of salary to get a Ph.D. in engineering. Chances are you'll never make it up over a 35-40 year career.

[singfreedom]

My thoughts exactly. WHY are our universities "advertising" for foreign participants in their graduate programs? I never have really understood their reasoning. Perhaps they want the international prestige or maybe just the money.

Maybe it's just late, but this lady's reasoning, particularly, escapes me.

[Jack Hammer]

"Yes, I wrote my doctoral dissertation on Recurring Themes in Sixteenth Century English Literature. Would you like fries with that?"

[CatoRenasci]

They want the money, and in the sciences, mathematics and engineering, they want students who are excited, well-prepared, and willing to work hard.

I find it troubling that so many Americans who do graduate work do it in fields that prepare them for government work or service industries rather than the hard sciences or engineering. All the public policy, social work or management training in the world will not suffice if there's nothing being invented here.

[EEDUDE]

"rather than the hard sciences or engineering"

You must be joking.

Have you looked at the career path for American engineers?

Hint: it's a very short one.

Much better to be a plumber in this day and age.

If I had it to do over, I would never go through what I went through in engineering school just to be replaced by an H1-B visa holder from Pakistan or India.

[dakine]

"just to be replaced by an H1-B visa"

Make yourself invaluable...create your own work, sounds like you think a job is deserved...

Before ya' ask, yes, I will working at Wal-Mart, all that my skills/ambition allow....

[EEDUDE]

No, I don't think a job is deserved.

I was simply commenting on the previous poster's lamenting the lack of people going into the hard sciences and engineering.

If the corporate community wants to create an environment where we have lots of Americans going into these fields, quit laying off qualified American engineers and hiring H1-B visas from these other countries.

There has NEVER been a shortage of qualified American engineers. But we are generating one now, because no one in their right mind will spend seven or so years in one of the toughest curriculums there is, just to be replaced by a slightly cheaper foreigner or have their job shipped offshore.

There are three engineers in my family:

One Software Engineer with a PhD in physics.

One MS Electronic Engineering.

One BS Electronic Engineering with an MBA.

All three of us have lost our jobs because of outsourcing or being replaced by H1-B visa holders.

No, we are not whining: we started our own company designing and selling physiological research instruments and are doing just fine. But we were lucky..right place, right time.

But would I recommend engineering to a bright young student?

Hell NO.

Not in this business climate.

[chipengineer]

>...no one in their right mind will spend seven or so years in one of the toughest curriculums there is...

No one should be an engineer unless he enjoys learning the skills, and unless he can get a useful degree in 4 years.

[EEDUDE]

To get a masters will typically take 6 years and sometimes seven.

And don't get me wrong, I love engineering. I just don't think it is a wise career choice.

Hope it works out differently for you.

Regards,

EEDUDE

[singfreedom]

You are absolutely correct. I really have to ask though, WHY are American students not being encouraged to study these subjects? (My oldest son is a "rocket scientist"-Dr. in Physics and he had the same education as my other kids, but he's just always loved math.) Are most of them not being prepared by our high schools? Are these subjects perceived as just too difficult? I'm really trying to understand the the problems.

[radiohead]

Perhaps they want the international prestige or maybe just the money.

It may be a bit of both. There is a desire to have international influence, which can be partly accomplished by international doctoral students who go back to their home country and tout the wonders of University X and the American way of doing things.

For some foreign students, their government, or for that matter, American programs, will pay for their enrollment. However, at good research universities, the school pays for doctoral students, no matter where they're from.

Having sat on a doctoral admissions committee, I'd say we could have a class full of Koreans and Chinese if we wanted. The Russians are not far behind. We have to take affirmative steps to assure we've got Americans. Maybe getting international students is a problem in the humanities, but my personal experience in tech and tech-related programs is that the foreigners are still coming in in droves. There are visa problems since 9/11 that have reduced the numbers, but plenty of people still manage to get in.