Posted on 04/17/2006 10:50:55 AM PDT by george wythe
It's a topic often lost in the heated battle over whether to add more border patrol agents, build a bigger fence, or deploy the US military along the border with Mexico. But in the end, most analysts agree, the United States can't stem the flow of illegal immigrants until it resolves to do one thing: punish employers who hire them.
[snip]
One local businessman, who wishes to remain anonymous, knows firsthand the weaknesses in the enforcement regime. He owned a large landscape business for more than two decades in which he employed up to 300 people at a time, most of whom were Latino immigrants.
His human resource department checked the documents of prospective employees and filled out the IRCA-required I-9 forms. "The quality of the documents varied quite a bit from being very, very good in terms of forgeries to the point of some pretty strange looking things, like misspelled names on social security cards," says the businessman. "The problem is where do you draw the line? And to what extent do we [employers] need to become experts in counterfeiting?"
He says the then Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) audited his business three times during the 1990s. Each time, he lost more than half his workforce, but never received a fine because "we did a good job of filling out all the paperwork."
"It became almost humorous that every time they came in, we knew we'd lose a bunch of people, but gradually we'd hire other ones, and that was just the way of doing business," he says.
(Excerpt) Read more at csmonitor.com ...
Of course, you're 100% correct.
I'm in the construction industry. I supervise projects that have thousands of workers on site. Every Friday, I see the subcontractors distribute checks to their employees, including the illegal aliens.
The myth that illegals get paid in cash or less than minimum wages does not hold in most case, at least, in the construction industry. Even laborers gets paid 9 or 10 dollars an hour. Our unemployment rate is less than 3 percent, and we can't find enough workers. Many projects are dormant waiting for help.
It would be more than a guy or two. Large numbers of illegals have fake social security cards, birth certificates, etc. There is a booming business in documents like these on the border, not only can they work easier- they can also use social services. Many also use someone else's - identity theft. I don't know what the penalties are now for getting caught using false documents, but I don't think it is being enforced on illegals. That might be the answer- crack down on those caught with or using any identification but their own.
I used to work at a Port of Entry and people came to the POA every day trying to use false documents to enter. In 10 years I never saw them hold any of them for prosecution. They would just take the documents and deny entry- no penalty for trying to use them to begin with. I suspect the attitude is the same for those caught in the country with false documents.
There is really two issues, illegals who are in the shadows getting paid cash, and illegals who have false documents and are on payrolls.
I think the number of illegals that are claiming to be citizens when working outnumber those that are using a bogus green card or someone else's green card and claiming to be a legal immigrant (legal to work). I could be wrong it would be interesting to see the numbers of those that are caught by ICE.
I'm not sure what is really going on, I really think if I tried to use bogus documents to either get a job, or get services then I think I would be in major trouble with the feds. Illegals are actually caught doing both every day and it seems like it is blown off by LE and the government. I know a few months ago there was a news story about an illegal who had stolen the identity of a retired US Army General; the illegal was caught somehow, but I never heard if he was prosecuted or just deported or what.
I think too many of our laws are just not being enforced on illegals. There are ways to solve the problems, at least most of them- but laws will have to be enforced.
I think we do need to enforce the laws against illegals caught using false documents. I don't think it is fair to put the burden on the employer to determine if they are false. Some employers know they are hiring illegals and some don't, any effort to "get" the ones that knowingly hire illegals will also trap those who hire illegals unknowingly.
I am against a national ID card, but what you say makes sense, how is an employer to really know if the person hired is legal or illegal?
I remember when this country was FREE by god, and I would like it to get back to that point. Requiring national IDs would not be a step in that direction.
We have laws in place now, laws that worked for many years before politicians decided they could get more votes from ILLeGALS or curry favors from businesses. Illegals kind of stand out. I dare you to drive by one of their gathering places and then ask yourself how you can tell they are immigrants.
For your information SS cards are not national IDs, but SS cards are all we need to enforce our immigration laws today.
A database of the SS numbers(which we already have) with names, description of the holder and place of currrent or last employment is all we need. Forgeries would show up, as would any forged green cards that were not on the national data base. So if a citizen shows up with a SS number and it is checked out, as it is supposed to be done now BTW, and the citizen turns out not to be the one whose name and address and current employment in some other state who was issued this card but by an Alien invader, then ship them back and if the employer fails to turn them in, prosecute the employer.
It would be easy, what is lacking is the will of politicians and the brains of citizens like you. Apparently you don't have one or you would see the trap that National IDs are for everyone. SS cards are ONLY used to verify employment status, national IDs would be used to harry you through everyday life, and it would happen very, very soon after inactment.
When necessary, yes. You're afraid of the "national I.D.", apparently ignoring that you already are required to have a social security card, and a driver's license or state I.D. for most people as well. You already are required to present your Social Security card when becoming employed by a new employer. In other words, the requirement you so strongly oppose already exists. The only difference is using one that can't be so easily forged. Is that really such a big deal?
Illegals stand out. I dare you to drive by one of their gathering places and then ask yourself how you can tell they are immigrants.
It doesn't matter what you can "tell". It matters what you can prove. Otherwise, some immigration goon could pick you up and toss you out just because he thinks you're here illegally. And how would you prove you're not?
A database of the SS numbers(which we already have) with names, description of the holder and place of currrent or last employment is all we need.
The database and names already exists. But now you want to add to the system by letting them keep a "description" of you? Exactly what is that going to be? Are you going to send the government updates as to your appearance every year? That doesn't bother you? And what about all those illegals are going to look a lot like other hispanics who are here legally? You just round up everyone who looks "like a Mexican"? Seriously.
The problem is that those cards are far too easily forged. There's no way an employer can tell from looking at one if its real, or a duplicate. And it takes forever to process that stuff because its all by paper. The employer takes the information down, copies it, then mails it to some GS-4 in D.C. where it goes at the bottom of some gigantic stack of paper.
Maybe a couple of months later, someone figures out the numbers don't match. They send another letter to the employer, and its now been three months. So the employer fires the person they only now knew had illegal documents, and that's perfectly fine with the illegal because he was going to leave anyway. It's a shell game made possible by using 1930's technology for social security cards.
Make the social security cards electronic, with a fingerprint match, and you've solved it. All citizens already must present one when they get a new job, so they'll have to keep doing that. But this one will actually make sure the holder is legal, and is who he says he is. But you apparently don't want to do that because that's a "national I.D.".
You want to be able to identify people without requiring them to present identification. That's pretty much an oxymoron.
The employers hiring illegals will continue doing so because IRS is not going after them for back taxes.
Sounds like a good idea.
Why?
Why?
All you have to do is set up a phonebank at the DHS whereine HR departments can call in to verify that the papers are authentic. IF the person' papers don't match the database, the papers are fake.
Very simple. We already have a similar system for checking gun buyers for criminal records.
Can you please explain what having a national ID, or lack thereof, has to do with freedom? What freedom, exactly, have you lost if you have an ID?
The main reason I oppose a national ID card is I am afraid at some point it may be used to track people for purposes it was not intended. I do not want to see the day in Americe where we are stopped at random and asked for identity. I have always felt the less the government knows about me, the better. I realize with all the databases that exist now, the government already knows more than enough- I just don't want to make it as easy for them as a national ID card would make it.
I've seen some of the fake documents, and I can't tell them appart.
Some of the forgers have stolen the real machines that the state uses to issue IDs, by breaking into drivers' license offices and hauling away the machines. Even more daring, they have gone back on a regular basis to steal supplies, such as the sophisticated plastic paper used to issue the cards.
In other words, a fake ID card and a real ID card can be printed by the same type of machine and in the same type of laminate paper.
The US works on an honor system. Most of us would not even think about lying to a police officer, much less buying fake IDs.
Once the honor system breaks down, all these technological gadgets become useless.
I know how common and good the forgeries are, I have seen some myself. The other issue is people who work at DMVs also get involved. We just had a case here where a man murdered a Deputy Sheriff and fled to Mexico. The murderer's aunt works at the DMV and they are now saying she fixed him up with vehicle registration and driver's license in a fake name. This is not even the first time a DMV official in this state has been in trouble using their job to make fake drivers licenses, titles, etc.
I think one answer is to prosecute to the fullest anyone found using fake documents or committing identity theft. It seems illegals are usually not prosecuted for this at all, even when caught. Right now they are only going after those who create the documents, not the users.
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