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Has Homosexuality Always Been Incompatible With Military Service?
WallBuilders ^
| David Barton
Posted on 04/11/2006 2:58:36 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
It depends not on the military but on the underlying society, and that's as it should be. Certainly there were several known militaries in which it was common and in their parent societies it was treated differently than it is in modern Western ones. There are schools of historical revisionism ("Sparta Reconsidered" is one) that are attempting either to deny its presence or put it in a new perspective, but evidence in the classics abounds.
So the strict answer to the question is "is homosexuality always compatible with military service?" is demonstrably "no." The question "is homosexuality incompatible with current Western military practice?" is quite a different question and should be dealt with from the perspective of its acceptance in our society, and not those of days gone by. We're not Macedonians or Thebans or Corinthians or Spartans, after all.
To: Darth Malice
Mexican illegals + Muslims, who needs Goths? Or was it Vandals.
To: qlangley
You're correct, but the number was closer to 300,000.
To: Androcles
Don't know about Washington, but their doing a good job in L.A.
44
posted on
04/11/2006 5:14:30 PM PDT
by
359Henrie
(NASA needs one more moon rock, its in Mecca.)
To: Conservative Coulter Fan
The unfortunate thing is that virtually every thing that we know about Sparta has been written by its enemies; and, consequently [at least in my opinion] highly suspect.
45
posted on
04/11/2006 5:21:14 PM PDT
by
curmudgeonII
(One man...and the Lord...are a majority.)
To: Conservative Coulter Fan
What were they called in George's days, Liberals?
46
posted on
04/11/2006 5:29:49 PM PDT
by
Waco
To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Sparta teaches us this: reject the idea of an all powerful state and embrace patriarchy.
47
posted on
04/11/2006 5:42:46 PM PDT
by
Jaysun
(If anything is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible.)
To: RogueIsland; scripter; EdReform
Going to original source material, can you actually prove that the Spartan military tolerated homosexuality?
I ask because when the movie "Alexander" came out, there was a great effort to suggest that Alexander practiced homosexuality.
What became evident was that there was only conjecture supporting that opinion.
Now, I don't know the answer to this question. I am curious, though, for the actual support undergirding the opinion that the Spartan military practiced homosexuality. For all I know they did.
But I'd like to see the proof.
48
posted on
04/11/2006 5:48:10 PM PDT
by
xzins
(Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Right on. It wasn't blatantly homosexual, but unfortunately pederasty was an accepted practice. However, it probably wasn't as common as it was in, say, Athens.
49
posted on
04/11/2006 6:18:46 PM PDT
by
Alexander Rubin
(Octavius - You make my heart glad building thus, as if Rome is to be eternal.)
To: xzins
They did tolerate homosexuality, probably. It was a widely accepted practice in Greece. I don't think it was as common as some make it out to be, though. Also, I suspect the pederasty was also largely an upper-class thing, at least in the other Greek cities.
And historical accounts suggest that Alexander probably was bi-sexual. He fell in love with Roxanne and was married, however. Additionally, he was Macedonian, not Spartan. Although one of his senior generals (who was his father's senior general before him) was Spartan. Parmenion.
50
posted on
04/11/2006 6:22:29 PM PDT
by
Alexander Rubin
(Octavius - You make my heart glad building thus, as if Rome is to be eternal.)
To: Billthedrill
51
posted on
04/11/2006 6:23:25 PM PDT
by
Alexander Rubin
(Octavius - You make my heart glad building thus, as if Rome is to be eternal.)
To: Alexander Rubin
We got in the Alexander discussion and no one could come up with anything but conjecture.
I'd be interested in some chapter, verse, etc. from a book of the era that demonstrates Spartan homosexuality.
52
posted on
04/11/2006 6:25:03 PM PDT
by
xzins
(Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
To: Conservative Coulter Fan
In the UCMJ shacking up is still against the rules, according to article 134. But, it is ignored. Isn't this the same policy with homosexuality?
53
posted on
04/11/2006 6:30:50 PM PDT
by
Pan_Yans Wife
("Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny. "--Aeschylus)
To: xzins
Written by Spartans or their enemies?
Relatively books written by Spartans exist. High culture wasn't their forte, generally.
Xenophon, Plato and Aristotle deny it. Others (many of them enemies, or those who would probably be hostile to the Spartans) allege it.
54
posted on
04/11/2006 6:36:16 PM PDT
by
Alexander Rubin
(Octavius - You make my heart glad building thus, as if Rome is to be eternal.)
To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Lotta words to say pillow biters don't belong around real men.
55
posted on
04/11/2006 6:39:28 PM PDT
by
sit-rep
(If you acquire, hit it again to verify...)
To: SteveMcKing
56
posted on
04/11/2006 6:40:31 PM PDT
by
sit-rep
(If you acquire, hit it again to verify...)
To: Alexander Rubin; EdReform; scripter
Xenophon, Plato and Aristotle deny it. Others (many of them enemies, or those who would probably be hostile to the Spartans) allege it.
It sounds as if it is speculation, then. Perhaps it is an academic fiction hoped for by pederast classicists.
57
posted on
04/11/2006 7:17:01 PM PDT
by
xzins
(Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
To: All
Why Lesbians Aren't Gay:
http://www.isteve.com/lesvsgay.htm
Mentions differences between Lesbians and Gays, including military issues. Mostly stereotypes that are observable to be mostly true.
58
posted on
04/11/2006 7:30:17 PM PDT
by
twippo
(Ted's of Beverly Hills: We want to put our meat in your mouth.)
To: Androcles
"You think the Goths will sack Washington?"
And how else would you describe Marion Barry and his 'constituency'?
59
posted on
04/11/2006 8:04:28 PM PDT
by
GladesGuru
(In a society predicated upon Liberty, it is essential to examine principle)
To: Alexander Rubin
Here is the thing about pedofiles. 60% of their victims end up because pedofiles themselves, and each pedofile usually molests many children. This means when a society doesn't rid itself of child molestors it spirals out of control. This is probably what happened in ancient greek societies.
Also I believe there are two kind of homosexuals. Those who were molested as a boy, which scrambles their sexual attractions, and those who are just genetically born that way. Either way it seems like its not going to change. So if a large portion of your societies children are getting raped by men, your going to have a very gay and very child molesting society.
60
posted on
04/11/2006 8:32:52 PM PDT
by
RHINO369
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