Has Homosexuality Always Been Incompatible With Military Service?

WallBuilders ^ | David Barton

[Darth Malice]

Its sad that Bush has cut lose the base....He does not give a darn about us....we got had.

[joesnuffy]

The Spartans were pedophiles rapists too...and the unfit died in boot camp...

[Radix]

Has Homosexuality Always Been Incompatible With Military Service?

 

Shelter halfs?

 

 

Don't get it?   

 

I'm not surprised.

 

There are lot a of reasons that a certain persuasion is not compatible with military service.

[twippo]

As my understanding is, homosexuals still have to register for the selective service. It seems logically, they should be exempt if they're ineligible for service. Then comes the question about young men faking homosexuality to avoid the draft, if that should happen.

[qlangley]

The organisation of Spartan society was certainly rather unusual. Boys and girls were separated at the age of seven. Boys were put into compulsory training that led directly to the military, from which they emerged in their late 20s. Lovers were encouraged to go into battle side by side. The theory was that soldiers would fight especially hard to protect their lovers. It seemed to work: the Spartan army was extremely successful. Three hundred of their elite troops held a pass against 30,000 Persians, until they were betrayed.

The state made marriage and children compulsory. The standard organization of a Spartan home became two male lovers at the centre, both married with children, and often owning slaves.

The Spartan experience suggests there is nothing inherently incompatible between homosexuality and military service, though it is worth questioning how much can be learned from the experience of a society so very different from any modern one. It also suggests that the claim that homosexuality is always or usually genetic in origin is open to considerable question.

[wagglebee]

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[Radix]

Ninety nine percent of any group of any kind could not find Sparta on a map.

It could be that they were not nearly as prolific breeders as were the Athenians.

[rmlew]

You forgot the Thban "Sacred Band", which was composed of lovers.

Personally I preffer the Spartan "thigh flashing dance" where maidens proved thier good qualities.
Still, Sparta was a horrendous society based on eugenics, slavery, and a constant state of war. The only good that ever came from SParta was Thermapoli.

[Androcles]

We are in the same boat as the Romans....heading for same fate

You think the Goths will sack Washington?

[twippo]

How many gays even want to be in the military? Their careers typically gravitate in the opposite direction; hairdressing, cosmetics, fashion, choreography. It's a minority within a minority. Lesbian women might be a different story.

[Alexander Rubin]

Sorry. I see classics being debated, so let me step in here. ;)

Spartans were actually quite prolific breeders. The problem was, they also had a very high death rate; and a very large slave class, which sapped resources. As for homosexuality in the Greek city states, it was actually more of a homosexual pedophilia (terrifyingly enough) that was part of a mentorship program. Very disturbing. Camp followers (read: prostitutes) followed armies around, just as tinkers and vendors did. There was huge demand. Bottom line? Spartans were ultra macho, and heterosexual. However, because it was a socially accepted custom in Greece (and the barabrian cultural satellites such as Macedeon), and an important part of currying favors (noble fathers would send their sons off to get mentored/buggered by older, more powerful nobles in the hopes of getting their kids noticed), homosexuality was rampant.

Also, I can find Sparta on the map. ;)

[Alexander Rubin]

Of course the Goths will eventually sack Washington.

That is, if they ever get out of Hot Topic or their parents' basements and stop writing bad poetry.

[Strategerist]

We are in the same boat as the Romans....heading for same fate<'i>

The Western Roman Empire didn't really go in the toilet till after Christianity was made the official religion.

[Brandi in AZ]

Perhaps the reason "blackmail" was not mentioned is because if a person were able to serve in the military as an openly gay person, they would have no secrets that leave them vulnerable to blackmail. Theoretically, it is only when they are "closeted" or living a double life that the blackmail issue comes into play.

[Conservative Coulter Fan]

PING..

[Conservative Coulter Fan]

I've been wondering recently if the GOP, at least nationally, is looking to dump the conservative base for a hispanic base.

[ExpatGator]

The flaw with that argument is that the gays are sexually attracted to each other. If those who are homosexually attracted to each other are allowed to berth in the same space why can't the heteros (male and female) berth with each other?

I spent 12 years in the Navy and am a strong opponent of gays in the service. It is most definitely not conducive to good order and discipline, and neither would different hetero sexes berthing with each other be advisable.

[Conservative Coulter Fan]

Last but not least, it is a frequent misconception that Spartan society was also blatantly homosexual. Curiously, no contemporary source and no archaeological evidence supports this widespread assumption. The best ancient source on Sparta, Xenophon, explicitly denies the already common rumors about widespread pederasty. Aristotle noted that the power of women in Sparta was typical of all militaristic and warlike societies without a strong emphasis on male homosexuality—arguing that in Sparta this "positive" moderating factor on the role of women in society was absent. There is no Spartan/Laconian pottery with explicitly homosexual motifs—as there is from Athens and Corinth and other cities. The first recorded heterosexual love poem was written by a Spartan poet for Spartan maidens. The very fact that Spartan men tended to marry young by ancient Greek standards (in their early to mid-twenties) suggests they had less time for the homosexual love affairs that characterized early manhood in the rest of Greece. Certainly the state considered bachelorhood a disgrace, and a citizen who did not marry and produce future citizens enjoyed less status than a man who had fathered children. In no other ancient Greek city were women so well integrated into society. All this speaks against a society in which homosexuality was exceptionally common.

Sparta Reconsidered

[Chode]

naaa, the goths now days are too busy writing poetry and crying to do much else...

[Conservative Coulter Fan]

See Post 38