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Is Bacterial Resistance to Antibiotics an Appropriate Example of Evolutionary Change?
TrueOrigin Archive ^ | March 28, 2006 | Kevin Anderson, Ph.D.

Posted on 03/28/2006 2:37:59 PM PST by Conservative Coulter Fan

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To: DannyTN
It de-evolution not evolution and it won't result in higher order creatures only lower order creatures.

The natives can live in malarial zones that would kill us. This is hardly de-evolution.

The fact that 1/2 their children die horrible deaths (1/4 anemia, 1/4 malaria) shows that this resistance mechanism was not intgelligently designed. (So does the fact that there are similar diseases, the thalassemias, in other malarial zones)

You need to define higher order.

we aren't seeing any positive mutations to offset them.

I contend that Hemogloben-S is a positive mutation. If it weren't why is it selected for?

61 posted on 03/28/2006 9:39:14 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Virginia-American
"The fact that 1/2 their children die horrible deaths (1/4 anemia, 1/4 malaria) shows that this resistance mechanism was not intgelligently designed."

You could make the same claim about any disease. But in fact, scripture says that God allowed and some cases caused diseases as a punishment.

It's akin to the claim that because man can't run like a cheetah or see like an eagle that we must be "sub-optimal" and therefore unintelligently designed. It's a bogus argument, as can be demonstrated by man's own inventions which are often intentionally suboptimal in some respect or another. Example a volkswagen vs a corvette.

62 posted on 03/28/2006 9:51:19 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: Old_Mil
"That having been said, bacterial resistance is not an example of evolution as the bacterium in question is not only still a bacterium, it is still the same sort of bacterium. You don't see Staph morph into Myco, or Strep into Hemophilus - much less seeing them change into Eukaryotic cells."

I can do Escherichia into Salmonella in about 6 weeks in the lab. Is that good enough for you?

63 posted on 03/28/2006 10:20:21 PM PST by furball4paws (Awful Offal)
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"Salmonella by morning, Up from San Antone" placemark


64 posted on 03/28/2006 10:42:58 PM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: dread78645

Awesome placemarker < Placemarker >


65 posted on 03/28/2006 11:03:38 PM PST by darbymcgill (FRevolution: The science of mutating concepts and definitions while tap dancing)
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To: furball4paws
I can do Escherichia into Salmonella in about 6 weeks in the lab.

Please outline the procedure; I wasn't aware of the possibility.

66 posted on 03/28/2006 11:11:54 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: DannyTN

Almost 30 years later and everyone still thinks they were right.

What's your explanation for how this gene just Poof! came into existence? Spontaneous generation?


67 posted on 03/29/2006 3:21:21 AM PST by ahayes
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Bacterial resistance is an excellent example of evolution - up to a point.

There are no examples of a mutating Staphylococcus aureus turning into a coagulase-negative staphylococcus, much less into a Pseudomonas, or even more for the purposes of Darwinism into a multicellular organism.

There are not even lethal mutants which show any changes in cellular structure suggestive of increasing complexity.

68 posted on 03/29/2006 3:36:41 AM PST by Jim Noble (And you know what I'm talkin' 'bout!)
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To: Jim Noble

It took something like two billion years for the first eukaryote to evolve. Then it took about another billion years to get multicellular organisms. And you want this to happen again in a convenient period of a few decades?


69 posted on 03/29/2006 3:45:29 AM PST by ahayes
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To: ahayes
It took something like two billion years for the first eukaryote to evolve. Then it took about another billion years to get multicellular organisms

Maybe (I'm agnostic).

But don't you think it odd to make the essence of science, for the purposes of instructing the young, something as untestable and unfalsifiable as the above statement?

70 posted on 03/29/2006 4:01:15 AM PST by Jim Noble (And you know what I'm talkin' 'bout!)
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To: HassanBenSobar; longtermmemmory
HassanBenSobar -- What is dishonest in this artcilet? I can read from that remark that that you are upset by this artcile, but would you be able to provide any specifics/details to support to that claim? After all it is serious claim you are making, isn't it?

longtermemmory -- I am at a loss to understand what you mean by "cracker jack box", except a really creepy one-shot slam. What do you find "cracker jack box"-ish about this article, providing something more than a one-shot slam, mabe sme facts, some analysis, something more fitting a person who is presumably college educated please?

71 posted on 03/29/2006 4:09:50 AM PST by bvw
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To: Jim Noble

I don't think I'd call eukaryote and prokaryote evolution the "essence of science" in instructing children. Most people hardly learn what they are until they're teenagers.

At any rate these processes are untestable if you mean doing a complete runthrough of the origin of life on Earth. However, we can have a high level of confidence for various reasons. The age of the Earth and the Solar System can be determined using a variety of methods that closely agree. The age of the oldest rocks can be determined using a variety of methods, and these ages are consistent with the age of the Earth (we don't have any rocks older than the planet!) We can find fossilized prokaryotes in rocks. Before a certain time period no fossilized eukaryotes are found, after that time period they are found frequently. And that's just the fossil evidence for the evolution of prokaryotes and eukaryotes.


72 posted on 03/29/2006 5:29:52 AM PST by ahayes
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To: bvw
What is dishonest in this artcilet?

See my post #12. They omitted discussion of the evolution of several genes and gene families that didn't fit with their "mutation and loss of function" paradigm. I hardly see how this could be accidental as MRSA and vancomycin resistance are the major antibiotic resistances of concern today. In compiling information on antibiotic resistance it would be impossible to overlook these unless one had purposefully swept them under the rug.

73 posted on 03/29/2006 5:33:15 AM PST by ahayes
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To: bert
The fit survive, the unfit die off.....

I guess we are ALL unfit, for surely we are going to die.

74 posted on 03/29/2006 5:49:45 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Ichneumon
Mutations, yes, "resulting in loss of function" no, you just made that up. Bad anti-evolutionist, no cookie for you.

Flightless birds are good for what?

75 posted on 03/29/2006 5:50:57 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: tomzz
...the girl monkeys are gonna be gone faster ...

But SOME girls monkeys like THIS:


 
 
 
 
 http://www.bmeworld.com/amago/bodmod/
 
 
 
 
My girlfriend also gives it a very favorable review.
http://www.bmeworld.com/amago/bodmod/apadravyaexp.html

76 posted on 03/29/2006 6:03:56 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie

Don't let an emu hear you say that, it would kick you into next week.


77 posted on 03/29/2006 6:04:20 AM PST by ahayes
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To: ahayes

But...

Does it have large talons?


78 posted on 03/29/2006 6:06:30 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie

"Flightless birds are good for what?"

Reproducing more flightless birds.


79 posted on 03/29/2006 6:10:34 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Virginia-American

For the most part Salmonella is lacking features that Escherichia has.

1. Begin with an Escherichia strain that has the following characteristics:

arginine utilization +
ornithine utilization +
xylose fermentation +
Esculin utilization -

2. Make the following mutations:

formic hydrogen lyase (knocks out gas formation from sugars) - piece of cake.

knock out beta-galactosidase, but not lactase - piece of cake

knock out salicin fermentation - piece of cake

knock out tryptophanase (indole reaction) - piece of cake.

3. Find genes (not from Salmonella - that would be cheating!) and move them into Escherichia.

For Hydrogen Sulfide formation. This has been dome from Pseudomonas, but other enteric like bugs would also be good sources. I would use a plasmid, because I also need:

Gene for citrate utilization. I don't remember the exact gene Escherichia needs for this, but it is in the literature. Probable source: Citrobacter. Stick it in the plasmid with above. The plasmid can be an integrative one.

4.After you've made this critter, clean it up and dust it off and send it to any clinical microbiology lab and have it tested. It will come back unequivocally as Salmonella.

There's a lot of overlap in the antigenic structures of Escherichia and Salmonella, so nothing will have to be done there.

(BTW this is one reason why many microbiologists of the non-clinical persuasion think of Salmonella and Escherichia as the same bug, but clinical people will not agree with this - but don't tell anyone).


80 posted on 03/29/2006 7:48:08 AM PST by furball4paws (Awful Offal)
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