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Is it time for a constitutional convention called by the people re: illegal immigration?

Posted on 03/27/2006 5:46:36 PM PST by Jim Robinson

Edited on 03/27/2006 8:53:53 PM PST by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: Bloody Sam Roberts

You forgot the tar and feathers. LOL


301 posted on 03/27/2006 9:31:49 PM PST by Jim Robinson
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To: Jim Robinson; All
Several folks asked for my response to the essay on the Convention method of proposing amendments to the Constitution. It is mostly correct, but on some points it is badly out of date and incorrect.

When Congress determined in 1992 that the 27th Amendment, written by James Madison as part of the Bill of Rights, was now ratified and part of the Constitution, it also regularized the amendment proposal process. Only ratifications of amendments, or calls for a Constitutional Convention, that are "contemporaneous," meaning within a seven-year window, would count as valid.

The essay assumes that any such Convention would be a general one, at which the Delegates could propose whatever amendments they wanted to. This ignores the fact that the States control such a Convention. If the States call for a Convention limited to a particular subject, then Congress determines if 2/3rds of the States have also called on that subject. If so, Congress calls the Convention dedicated to that subject, and can refuse to submit for ratification anything which goes outside the legitimate subject matter of the Convention.

For decades now, some tin-foil hat folks have been using the lie that any Convention must be a general Convention to raise money from people fool enough to believe that. It is false, and I have now fought that false belief in hearings before committees of 26 state legislatures.

The fact that the same false belief has cropped up in this essay is unfortunate. If the subject is still live after the election, and I have more time, I'll join in this discussion again.

Congressman Billybob

Latest article: "2nd Report on the Campaign for the NC 11th District"

302 posted on 03/27/2006 9:32:57 PM PST by Congressman Billybob (www.ArmorforCongress.com RIGHT NOW. I need your help.)
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To: detsaoT

"After all, entire nations are paralyzed by parties which represent a mere 30-40% plurality of the nation. Is that what we really want? Or do we want for a party to be formed which will eventually replace one of the two existing parties,"

Who is "we"?
I think what Jim Robinson wants is for immigration to be addressed square on, and the border closed to illegal immigration.
Some FReepers want the Kelo decision thrown out and private property protected.
Others want abortion and euthanasia outlawed.
Still others want liberalized gun laws.
There is a strong contingent that wants the abolition of the income tax in favor of other forms of taxation.
I PERSONALLY agree with perhaps a third of that platform.

But neither the Republican nor the Democratic parties agree with more than a sliver of it. Republicans talk a good game, but do nothing substantial. Ever.

So, what I'd most suppose is that "we" want the issues actually ADDRESSED, and the problems FIXED. Now, if that could be done by just sounding the alarm, I think that Mr. Robinson and most others would do it that way.
But it can't be.
If it could be done by just forming a PAC and agitating, that might be a step. But those PACs already exist, and they haven't moved the football at all on any of those treasured issues.
If it can be done by just THREATENING to set up a third party, and going through the gestures - if that would provoke the Republicans to come to their senses - well, then I suspect that most people would do that. But I suspect that the Republicans will unleash the investigatory and regulatory power of government on anyone who seriously threatens their political dominance.
Which means that threatening politics doesn't work. You have to DO it.

Now, I would not get into a game except to win. I'd have a long term goal of replacing one of the parties. But along the way, a new party would pick up strength and become something of a power broker. And that is fine. There is no reason to eschew the use of power along the way to majority. Because, remember, the purpose is to get the policies enacted, and you wouldn't have gone to all of the headaches, bother and expense to actually form a party, run candidates and rule if the existing parties and officeholders had listened to your reasonable requests in the first place.

I think the answer is that once you say you are going to launch, you set up and launch NO MATTER WHAT the other parties say or do. And you strive to win politically, but you never forget that your PURPOSE is to get the policies in place, and if you can do that through power sharing, that's fine. It's not about the power but the policies. Unfortunately, the stubbornness of existing politicians forces you to drive them before you, but that's because they chose to resist you instead of doing the sensible thing.


303 posted on 03/27/2006 9:33:31 PM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: NormsRevenge
See my brief answer, earlier in this thread and addressed to Jim Robinson and "All."

John / Billybob
304 posted on 03/27/2006 9:35:04 PM PST by Congressman Billybob (www.ArmorforCongress.com RIGHT NOW. I need your help.)
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To: durasell
A)Increased taxes to enforce the laws on every level -- local, state and fed.

They're taking our money hand over fist now to support, feed, clothe, house, and provide them medical care . I'd rather bleed like a stuck pig once and get it over with than to be slowly sucked dry, which is what they are doing now.

B)A new level of government intrusion into all businesses, particularly small businesses to check for undocumented workers. This could extend to home searches if there were "probable cause" of undocumented workers working as domestics.

I say, let the games begin. Fine employers who hire illegals out the ying yang. Ya gotta hit them in the wallet to get there attention.

Of course, some right here on FR knowingly hire illegal aliens.

305 posted on 03/27/2006 9:35:43 PM PST by processing please hold (Be careful of charity and kindness, lest you do more harm with open hands than with a clinched fist)
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To: pbrown

Is your opinion widely shared by friends and those on FR?


306 posted on 03/27/2006 9:37:26 PM PST by durasell (!)
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To: Pukin Dog
* Declare illegal immigrants as "trespassers" and arrest them when they congregate

They already trespass on private property and when I call the police they respond by saying have they committed any crime, and I explain I would like 50 guys shooed away from the corner and they laugh and proceed to tell me I am crazy - why should they do anything about hard working people just looking for work. An hour later they are out there picking up prostitutes and their johns. I fail to see the difference, but the Phoenix Police Chief certainly has his priorities straight! /sarcasm

307 posted on 03/27/2006 9:38:30 PM PST by p23185
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To: judicial meanz
I found a news source for that if you would like to post it as a separate thread:

http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_12259.shtml
National Day of Protest: A day without Americans April 17, 2006!
By D.A. King
MichNews.com
Mar 26, 2006
308 posted on 03/27/2006 9:39:33 PM PST by flutters (God Bless The USA)
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To: Congressman Billybob
Thank you for helping me find the key error about the single subject situation. I fixed it by adding one paragraph, but I needed to further clarify what you had told me a month ago (or so.)

This essay probably needs another iteration.

309 posted on 03/27/2006 9:40:17 PM PST by Publius
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To: SouthTexas

Now none of this secession talk, ST.

:-)


310 posted on 03/27/2006 9:41:05 PM PST by Herford Turley (Conservatism will save America)
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To: Petronski; Junior
Once a constitutional convention is, well, convened, the entire constitution is subject to change. That is a BAD idea. Think of the potential for the left: delete the 2nd, delete parts of the 1st; add express right to abortion; ERA; gay marriage; etc. BAD idea.

That's my take on it as well.

311 posted on 03/27/2006 9:41:26 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon

Aw, c'mon, roll the dice with the Constitution. It could get interesting. There might be fist fights.


312 posted on 03/27/2006 9:43:53 PM PST by durasell (!)
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To: detsaoT
Your assumption that there are "no limits" on a Constitutional Convention is false and contrary to the states' powers under Article V of the Constitution. If the states CHOOSE to call for a general Convention with no limits, then that is what they will get. But not since 1789 has even a single state called for such a Convention.

To the contrary, the hundreds of state calls passed since then have ALL been restricted to specific subjects, and never have 2/3rds of the states agreed on a single subject. If your assumption were correct, such a general Convention would have occurred back in the 1980s, when there were 40 states on record as calling for a Convention -- but on a wide variety of non-matching subjects.

You're buying a tin-foil, fund-raising argument. The power on this issue belongs to the states. And if they want to use just part of their power, to call for a Convention limited to immigration, for instance, they have every right to do exactly that.

Congressman Billybob

Latest article: "2nd Report on the Campaign for the NC 11th Distrrict"

313 posted on 03/27/2006 9:44:07 PM PST by Congressman Billybob (www.ArmorforCongress.com RIGHT NOW. I need your help.)
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To: Ichneumon

You know, when I was typing that, I meant "explicit" or "expressed" right to abortion, but I think my slip ("express") is pretty accurate too.


314 posted on 03/27/2006 9:44:14 PM PST by Petronski (I love Cyborg!)
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To: flutters

Thanks!


315 posted on 03/27/2006 9:44:20 PM PST by judicial meanz (Progressive liberals and Stalinists; tell me exactly where they are different in their beliefs?)
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To: pbrown; Jim Robinson
"Can 'we the people' come together as a plaintiff . . . "

I was just reading about that. Not sure if this answers your question:

http://www.abanet.org/publiced/impeach2.html

316 posted on 03/27/2006 9:45:12 PM PST by Eastbound
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To: Ichneumon

The new constitution could get corporate sponsorship. Ya know, class it up with company logos around the borders.


317 posted on 03/27/2006 9:45:34 PM PST by durasell (!)
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To: Congressman Billybob

I appreciate that clarification. I wonder if the 38 states would be wise enough to properly limit a convention.


318 posted on 03/27/2006 9:46:04 PM PST by Petronski (I love Cyborg!)
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To: durasell

We'd be proposing a constitutional amendment, not a new constitution.


319 posted on 03/27/2006 9:47:13 PM PST by Jim Robinson
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To: Congressman Billybob

Ach! 38 states is 3/4ths.


I mean 34 states.


320 posted on 03/27/2006 9:47:17 PM PST by Petronski (I love Cyborg!)
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