TEEN MOWED DOWN (SHOT) OVER LAWN Just killed a kid, man tells 911

The Winnipeg Sun ^ | March 21, 2006 | AP

[Albion Wilde]

You have slung the terms for mental disorder around this forum interchangeably with the concept of "sin". I think you need to realize that it is a very offensive way to speak to people, and that mental disorders take many forms and vary from quite harmless or even as aids to creativity all the way to criminal pathology.

This man appears to have had a psychotic break, which bears little or no direct relation to OCD or to people who like a neat lawn after living in their house for 30 years, not to mention liking to be treated with respect as an older person. No one is arguing with you, however, that the shooter had a mental disorder. You're late to the party and overstating the obvious.

[WLR]

"To kill someone over a lawn is insane. To defend someone for doing so is also nuts."

I am convinced that is right to the degree another course of action would have been more desirable. Like the young MAN and others like him staying off the elders property after being asked to do so. Like his parents and others like them teaching their progeny respect for others, their property and wishes.

As to being nuts to defend the senior.. I just see the issue differently.

"We had a next door neighbor like that. He'd sit on his front porch with his rifle at his side threatening the kids to come near him. Some people are just nuts."

Apples and Oranges

There is no evidence to suggest this older fellow was acting that way further there is evidence he followed the rules and sought the assistance of the local Law Enforcement agency previously to deal with this issue (The other fellow in another neighborhood who was communicating threats or brandishing firearms in a menacing manner in the past is quite different (which is clearly criminal).


What is the message we want to send to other young men?

This one is "DEAD" maybe he can serve a good purpose.
Suggesting he was an innocent child does no one any good

I am defending the old fellow’s right to live in dignity and peace, un-harassed, unmolested in his person and property.

My experience has shown that young people who have no respect for your property "graduate" to having no respect for your person and do their advanced degree work in violence and other forms of criminality.

In my case the natural landscape in one place and the lovely rocks in the other certainly force me to concur it would be nuts to blast someone over my "lawns".

I just disagree that the best response is to lock up the old guy. Let him go, let it be a lesson to the other little hoodlum wannabees or hoodlums in fact that their actions may have undesirable consequences.

I have also had nutty people yell at my girls 10 and 12 for playing in my yard behind a wooden fence. I shut my mouth and moved them to the other side of the property. There is no way I could hurt the guys feelings enough to bring my girls back if he went off. So I used discretion. So I do understand the flip side of this issue.

People occasionally do go off for no reason however that is not normally the case. To pretend otherwise is to delude oneself.

Everything I have read so far indicates the senior was trying to mind his own business.

No reasonable person wants to see some kids blasted for walking across a lawn.. True.

However please stop pretending that this occurred out of the blue or the person killed was a child. Clearly it did not and he was not.

I have many times in the past said we need perspective on young people’s misadventures. I agree they should be allowed to make mistakes. However something about this story and the responsibility for the shooting being one-sided does not ring true to me.

If the senior was a troubled fellow and a bad guy there has been no mention of it in the press so far. If he was a nut job threatening his neighbors, because a firearm was used the MSM could be counted on to trumpet his bad guy aspects in order to defame firearms owners. That just hasn't happened


We fail to protect property owners and their right to live peaceably.

Then are "Surprised" when they "go off"?

Our elected officials deliberately allow older neighborhoods to deteriorate so their contractor friends can come in an "redevelop" the "blighted" areas making millions. Sometimes in the process people walk into city hall and blast someone.

We are "Surprised" they "Go Off"

The criminal youth in these areas run the streets while Seniors and Working folk are behind Bars in their homes.

Then we are "Surprised" when some older fellow sends rounds downrange?

We fail to insist our young men and women show respect for others and their property. Instead the schools carefully teach them the "magic words" which cause law enforcement to strongly react to any resistance by any adults to their "youthful exuberance"/criminal conduct and thuggish behavior.

Then we are "Surprised" when "Crazy Old Joe" Blasts a couple teenage hoods?

I am not.

As I mentioned before I also have dealt with nutty neighbors. Unless I want to rekindle that old GI Paranoia every night and day I make allowances and instruct my kids to do the same and or I move.

A while back an old guy who lived in an apartment complex near my old home snapped and blasted a half dozen folks. It turned out that a goodly number of people in that complex, adult and kids with their parents blessing had been deliberately making his life a living hell for years.

And we are “Surprised”

In California it is nearly impossible in less than 90 days to get a squatter out of a home or Apartment you own that they have broken into and taken up "residency" in, if they know the paper drill the information and obtain legal representation which is all available free. It is illegal to shut off power, water or other services (you must pay for) during that time and doing so provides the Squatter grounds for a successful suit and or your criminal (yes criminal) prosecution. So you must pay for the privilege of sitting and watching while they destroy what you have worked for. Property owners occasionally "go off"

We are "Surprised" and arrest them.

Now the old man will suffer indignities and violence from others for reaching that place in himself. He did not go there alone and it did not have to end as it did. Others had choices also. The young man's parents will live with them and their failure to teach him caution and respect cost them their son. Just as the young Man has died with his decisions.

I do not argue that the death or hurt of any American is not a sad thing. Even the bad ones as it is a waste of God's gifts of Awareness and Life. But there are ideals and principles like honor and respect which transcend death and suffering, which make ones death or hurt not the worst of things for anyone.

The young people and their parents slowly methodically and (perhaps) unknowingly took the old man to that place.

That is a lesson lost on many but I hope not all.


Wm

[Candor7]

The cause of the shooting is not what you think. As a parent one needs to raise ones children to respect others property, whether it is owned by a crazy person or not. The kid died of a fatal gunshot wound, but he also died of a lack of respect for property. I saw the same thing happen to a German photographer in Kenya. He took pictures of an old Masai warrior and the refused to pay him a shilling , the going rate. The German just kept on clicking his shutter until the old boy's MAsia spear put 4 feet of stell through the Germans gut.

The german did die of a fatal spear would but he also died because of a lack of respect for the tribesman, who BTW was never apprehended.

The world is not a Liberal Utopia, one can ,and many do die because they do not respect people or their property.

So to say the crazy neighbor is the only moving factor which caused the kids death is simply untrue, there were actually two causes of death.

And if the parents had educated and /or controlled their kid, the ultimate cause would not have happened. This you know but cannot face. Is it because you do not raise your kids properly?

Change that!

[Candor7]

The cause of the shooting is not what you think. As a parent one needs to raise ones children to respect others property, whether it is owned by a crazy person or not. The kid died of a fatal gunshot wound, but he also died of a lack of respect for property. I saw the same thing happen to a German photographer in Kenya. He took pictures of an old Masai warrior and the refused to pay him a shilling , the going rate. The German just kept on clicking his shutter until the old boy's MAsia spear put 4 feet of stell through the Germans gut.

The german did die of a fatal spear would but he also died because of a lack of respect for the tribesman, who BTW was never apprehended.

The world is not a Liberal Utopia, one can ,and many do die because they do not respect people or their property.

So to say the crazy neighbor is the only moving factor which caused the kids death is simply untrue, there were actually two causes of death.

And if the parents had educated and /or controlled their kid, the ultimate cause would not have happened. This you know but cannot face. Is it because you do not raise your kids properly?

Change that!

[Candor7]

Do you generally accept the word of those who are Loco en la cabesa?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No I do not, I just nod my head politely.. move on and avoid any further uneccessary contact with them.

[Paridel]

Then we are "Surprised" when "Crazy Old Joe" Blasts a couple teenage hoods?

You are sick. Very very sick.

It is illegal to shut off power, water or other services (you must pay for) during that time and doing so provides the Squatter grounds for a successful suit and or your criminal (yes criminal) prosecution.

This is the most ridiculous slippery slope fallacy I have seen used on FR in a long time. Yes, clearly this old man was in danger of losing his property for not defending it. "Apples and Oranges" indeed.

The old man reportedly "measured his lawn with a ruler". He had not filed a police report in the past 3 years for people walking on his lawn. He had however, filed previous reports when people did so. The boy probably had other times when the old man flew off the handle for no go reason. But it is unreasonable for us to think that he should have expected to get shot.

I'm fairly certain we will find out later that this old man is mentally unstable.

I'm ready to state that right now: 'Neighbours said he would work himself into a rage if they mowed a foot over the invisible dividing line separating their gardens. "He was really warped on that stuff," one local resident said.' [Guardian]

However, you insist that this boy was no "child". you think he should have been old enough to know better than to tread on this man's lawn. You whole viewpoint seems to be based on the fact that he was 15 and the old man was 66. Personally I think as the old man had 51 years on the boy and should have learned some better people skills in that time. You insist that the boy was old enough to have adult responsibility, yet ironically you withheld the benefit of the doubt for his actions based on his age. That is some double standard you have.

Clearly in your eyes due process under the law is something that should come several years after we start holding someone responsible.

-paridel

[June Cleaver]

What you said!! LOL

[June Cleaver]

I agree with you . . . it's hard to believe the usually logical thinkers here are finding any kind of justifiable explanation for the Turf Nazi's actions.

[eeevil conservative]

I can't defend the guy for shooting this kid.. not at all..

but I do wonder if people would react the same if this kid ahd been harassing the man by slitting tires and smashing windows in the old man's corvette....

It is HIS lawn... If he takes the time and spends the money to make it just so.. no one has the right to come along and muck it up just for the enjoyment of angering the owner...

my thoughts.. the man has gone nuts....he is dnagerous and keep him locked up...

but I am also glad that this 15 yr old never grew up and married my daughter.. or else I might be the one doing time...

[WLR]

The boy is dead.

If as a society we declare him innocent of any responsibility in his own death when we know he indeed was trespassing and deliberately inciting an old man his death will be waste.

Locking up the old guy is predictable but certainly no deterrent to an old guy (we are dying anyway, the young girls aren't calling (as often:), you cannot kill us twice
death or life plus 60 don't mean much if you have liver cancer).


On the other hand, telling young men.

"Look what happens when you deliberately provoke others"

This may after a few repeat performances have the desired effect.


Unless the old man is a mental case (wherein he should be in a secure seniors home) punishing him minimally will send a more productive message. One that may enhance respect for the possessions and persons of older folk maybe all folk. One of the reasons we respect older folk is they carried the burdens and responsibilities before us for building a wonderful society and country.

We will soon have millions of older people and they will not put up with being victimized because they are old. It is just better to get in front of what will become a senior's rights and dignity parade.

This is just one place to start.

I have seen young men try to intimidate seniors. They fail to realize for a senior male who in perhaps many cases has lost and is losing most of the reasons for existence. A lawn, their car, their Bible and billfold on the street really represent their honor and sense of self worth. Their honor is at stake. At that point they are more dangerous to the Young Man than another young person because they truly have “nothing to lose”. When a young man uses that phrase more often than not in our culture he expects still to live forever the old man harbors no such illusions and may even welcome death as an end to pain and suffering.

Times are changing; Old folks increasingly blast away unlike in the past. So let's teach our young men once again the meaning and practice of respecting their elders for the sake of their own survival or they may be taking dirt naps before the old guys.

I respect 99.975 percent of the people at FR and respectfully listen to all.


Just what am I missing?

W

[eeevil conservative]

what are you missing?

holy cow!

yes there are consequences to behavior..

heck we can't even keep child rapists in jail, but killing a 15 yr old punk for aggravating an old man?

the kid needed a PARENT willing to bother teahing him a lesson- but DEATH!?

I have a 16 yr old son. He gets all A's and B's, plays football, runs track, does commuinity theater, coaches elementary school JR Track, teaches Sunday school, helps with meals, laundry, etc around the house.-- BUT- when he has friends, I won't let he and his friends out of the house after dark. WHY? because if ANYTHING happens in this neighborhood- people - grumpy old people- will be sure to BLAME HIM. People don't like teens, and many deserve it.. but MANY DON'T!

either way- the kid may have been a punk- but wee don't kill people for being punks...

[buckleyfan]

He's going to rot in jail, then he'll rot in hell (or work it off in purgatory ;)

Nutbag, guilty as charged. Case closed.

[Bagel]

That guy deserves to rot in jail. Killing someone over a lawn. That’s ridiculous.

[No Blue States]

“Kids playing on the lawn is the ultimate sense of satisfaction. My lawn is not for show, but use.”

BTTT

[Mamzelle]

Yeah--I'll bet this guy hasn't worked for years, and all he can do is steam about his neighbors, manicure his grass with tweezers, and resent a teenager for having a life ahead of him.

I hope the old fart fries.

Talk about goading--try living around a lot of these mean old geezers. They whine over any little thing, feel all mistreated and neglected when they've got all the blessings--basically bored out of their skulls, so they gripe, gripe and gripe...

[Mamzelle]

Then don't put me on his jury. This is capital murder.

Sounds like he's a disgrace to the Navy, too.

[Mamzelle]

I guess they can sue wifey, too. She can finish her retirement in poverty and shame.

[poindexter]

It’s called a fence.

[Xenalyte]

That’s the justification I use for the crappiness of my knitting and crocheting . . .

“What am I, God? Yeah, I am aware He could knit a perfect sock in about six minutes. But I’m not Him.”

[Xenalyte]

You must be my age. I’d get in trouble for something at school . . . then my mother, who taught at my school, would bust me . . . and THEN when Dad got home, I’d get a third helping.