Darwin: Headed for the Ash-Heap

And Rightlyso...Conservative Book Club ^ | 1-20-2006 | Jeffrey Rubin

[Clemenza]

True, and I will bow before your wit and wisdom, oh mistress of the snake handlers and foot washers!

[Filo]

There is no proof.

There is more than enough proof. I don't want to go around and around with you. Your opinion is biased and you refuse to take any actual facts into account that don't support it.

We are not about facts here, we are about belief.

And therein lies the problem. You are, admittedly, about belief and you are trying to project your standards onto others. It's not working. I have seen experiments, fossil finds, studies, papers and live examples that demonstrate evolution to me clearly.

I am not alone in this. 99% of the scientific community stands with me.

You don't seem to grasp that you are forced to start with a warm pond, presumably sterile since there would be no microorganisms yet, spark actual self sustaining life, and process through to an amazing diversity of different life, plant, insect and mammal[...]

I omitted the last part of that diatribe because it only serves to expose more of your ignorance.

I do, however, understand what you put forth quite clearly. From a sterile pond full of basic elements (or a damp clay infused with these elements or whatever theory you follow) it is quite provable that amino acids and other building blocks of life will arise. It is no stretch at all to see those chemicals begin to replicate. Once that happens it is easy to understand that they will end up "competing" in a way for the essential elements that make them up. It is also easy to see that the replication will have the potential for errors, some beneficial, most destructive. That's all you need.

Have we repeated this experimentally? Not on the whole, no, but we have part by part. It took millions of years for it to happen naturally so I think we're doing pretty good.

No, you don't have close to enough evidence to support a hypothesis.

You're quite right. I have an overwhelming amount of evidence. You are just blind to it, by choice or otherwise.

Do us both a favor and spare our free time if you aren't willing to bring even a single fact to support your assertion to a subsequent post.

[William Terrell]

Unfortunately, there are so many disputed points, unexplained holes and events, and tiny indications vulnerable to multiple interpretations, that interspecies evolution rests at the level of belief.

You have to want to believe it to see irrefutable evidence.

[William Terrell]

If you want to believe in a fairy tale, go right ahead. I'll live in my fairy tale, you live in yours. The results of my fairy tales have resulted in about 350,000 peacetime deaths, whereas the results of yours have resulted in about 11 million.

I'll take mine, thanks.

[Coyoteman]

You show me graphics and a lot of meaningless terms. Con men have used this technique for centuries. Show me precisely what this is supposed to prove, explain it clearly, define the terms. If changes in the graphic representations indicate something, then point out precisely which changes and what they are supposed to prove.

Take a look at some of the scientific websites.

Its late on a Friday night, and I am not about to do an hour of research on a post which you would most likely reject out of hand.

If you have a serious interest, that is another story, and I will be happy to do detailed posts and share what I have learned. But from what I have seen to date, I feel you are strictly anti-evolution, so I will pass.

[Junior]

What made organisms decide they needed to get down and self-replicate?

Barry White on the stereo...

[Just mythoughts]

"What more information do you think the database requires in order to answer this question?"

More testing of the dead and living.

I would not want to systematically start grave robbing to collect DNA data, but would be one source. For example my ggrandfather came to this country in late 1800's supposedly from Germany, he stowed away on a ship and I really have no way of knowing if he was in fact German. So is there a German DNA marker? I am told that one of my ggrandmother was Cherokee, I have no way to verify that, as she was never listed on the Cherokee Indian rolls. Is there a Cherokee DNA marker?

[Coyoteman]

I would not want to systematically start grave robbing to collect DNA data, but would be one source. For example my ggrandfather came to this country in late 1800's supposedly from Germany, he stowed away on a ship and I really have no way of knowing if he was in fact German. So is there a German DNA marker? I am told that one of my ggrandmother was Cherokee, I have no way to verify that, as she was never listed on the Cherokee Indian rolls. Is there a Cherokee DNA marker?

mtDNA is passed only from mother to daughter, so it will not help with your ggrandfather. It may help with your ggrandmother if it is all from her to daughter to daughter to you.

There are a lot of firms out there who can do this kind of research. Try TraceGenetics in Davis, CA.

Often there is no need for "grave robbing" as patterns can be established in the mtDNA. These can be readily followed.

Archaeology helps also. We received results from four archaeological samples this week. Two track a migration going back some 15,000 years, while two are much more recent. We are now going to radiocarbon date these specimens for even more detail.

Just in the last few years the technology, and mtDNA database, are getting sophisticated enough to really start to track population movements.

There is good progress being made on the Y side also.

[Filo]

The results of my fairy tales have resulted in about 350,000 peacetime deaths, whereas the results of yours have resulted in about 11 million.

Say what?

[fabian]

I think the many wars and mans inhumanity is a good point. If we were truly evolving we woudldn't be trying to destroy one and other in so many cases. Anyways, I believe the evidence is really clear and I'm glad there are many scientists who are exposing the clearity. I'm sorry I'm too tired to give research evidence, but obviously it's there for all to see. I can refer you to some very informative sites if you like.

[joyspring777]

I am just so sick and tired of your sides repeated use of the word mythology.

You, and others who use it, are just attempting to offend, frustrate and ridicule your opponents position.

That is not debate, that is hiding.

[Clemenza]

Again: PROVE TO ME that "God" exists using the scientific method.

There is NO PLACE for metaphysics in the PHYSICAL SCIENCES.

[Just mythoughts]

"mtDNA is passed only from mother to daughter, so it will not help with your ggrandfather. It may help with your ggrandmother if it is all from her to daughter to daughter to you."

Yes I do realize that, however, it would establish the identity of my ggrandfather, he did have male children and some of them are still alive.

"There are a lot of firms out there who can do this kind of research. Try TraceGenetics in Davis, CA.

Often there is no need for "grave robbing" as patterns can be established in the mtDNA. These can be readily followed."

Yes I am aware there are places to have these tests done, I have seen different ones doing genetic studies on genealogy sites. However, finding on paper one is said to be of a particular family does not always make it so and the progenitor of said family would provide unquestioned evidence.

"Archaeology helps also. We received results from four archaeological samples this week. Two track a migration going back some 15,000 years, while two are much more recent. We are now going to radiocarbon date these specimens for even more detail.

Just in the last few years the technology, and mtDNA database, are getting sophisticated enough to really start to track population movements.

There is good progress being made on the Y side also."


Then there are different population markers? How many specific population markers have been discovered?

[Junior]

You use the word mythology to describe gods other than the one your worship, because you believe they don't exist. Yet you will not extend the same privilege to your opponents.

[William Terrell]

Did I stutter?

[Coyoteman]

Here are a few paragraphs from the Trace Genetics website:

mtDNA Tests:	Trace the origin of the direct maternal line (mother's mother's mother, etc). mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) is passed down from mother to child. Men have their mother's mtDNA, but do not pass it on to their children. There are 30 major maternal lineages (haplogroups) that have been identified worldwide. The mtDNA test determines which one of the 30 maternal lineages they belong to and provides the broad geographic region throughout which the lineage is found (Example: Africa, Europe, Middle East).
Y SNP Tests:	Trace the origin of the direct paternal line (father's father's father, etc) Only men carry the Y-chromosome so it is passed only from father to son. There are 18 major paternal lineages (haplogroups) that have been identified worldwide. The Y-SNP test determines which one of the 18 lineages to which you belong and provides the broad geographic region throughout which the lineage is found (Example: Oceania, Africa, Asia, Americas). Only males can take this test. Women interested in their paternal ancestry need a father, brother, paternal uncle or paternal male cousin take the test.
DNAPrint Genome-wide Tests:	Traces the ancestry from both your maternal and paternal sides to about 5 generations back. Results are broken down across broad geographic groups.

You were interested in verifying a ggrandfather to Germany, and that may be possible depending on where their "broad geographic groups" are located. More likely you would get central Europe. But, give them or one of the other labs a try. They are making great progress.

Good luck.

[narby]

Evolution is based upon the belief in "biogenesis" without it the theory does not have standing. A faith based belief.

Not true.

The origin of life could have been anything, even God if you wish to believe so. Because science doesn't know, or claim to know how life began. All we have are hypothesis, and that may be all we ever know on the subject.

But we *do* know that evolution happened after that, because the evidence says so overwhelmingly. If you believe that God is the creator, then He created that evidence. That creationists ignore this evidence is hypocritical, in that they worship a book transcribed by man, but have no regard for the very creation of God all around them, with evidence written in His own hand.

I'm sure you will take this into account the next time someone says "Biogenesis and Evolution are separate subjects", or disagree with me here and tell me how I'm wrong.

[Condorman]

You are asserting gravity is not truth.

I asserted nothing.

You are asserting the law of entropy (2nd law of thermodynamics) from order to disorder is not true.

I took no stand on that issue either.

and you try to relate or compare this to coin tossing?

Was I not clear? You gave predictions of 100%. I asked if you were certain of your probabilities with respect to something as complex as gravity or entropy. A simple coin toss experiment should therefore be illustrative.

If a fair coin is flipped 20 times in a row, which is the more likely outcome?
A) HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
B) HTHTTHTHHTHHHTHTHTHH

[Filo]

Did I stutter?

Not quite, but you did say something so astoundingly ridiculous that I can't imagine what the hell you were talking about.

Maybe you could clarify?

[VadeRetro]

You said there are no transitionals. I gave you transitionals. You said "blah! Blah! Blah!"