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Taiwan Storm Set To Get Louder (China)
BBC ^
| 3-14-2006
| Chris Hogg
Posted on 03/13/2006 6:24:53 PM PST by blam
click here to read article
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To: starbase
There are many Chinese people on Taiwan, but none that have ever been under the government or rule of the communist party of China.
Nor should they ever be under their rule.
When the Communist Party goes away the idea of unification isn't going to be that big of a deal anymore, except among some uber hardcore types.
To: Quix
That is, unity chosen by both sides.
Would mostly just prefer to avoid a conflict.
The Taiwnese are doing well enough governing themselves. At least I don't think their corruption is any worse and might be less horrendous.
22
posted on
03/13/2006 8:42:55 PM PST
by
Quix
(GOD IS LOVE and full of mercy HE IS ALSO JUST & fiercely HOLY. Groups choosing death can reap it)
To: starbase; Fishing-guy
Under political terms no one on Taiwan is "Chinese".
Under ethic terms, there are tons of people who are...
It just depends on what you are talking about...
To: underbyte
I speak English, write English I must be an Englishman? Fact is they are politically and hence culturally different and a friend of the US of A
Extend your argument to the southwest (remember the Alamo) and we should give it back to Mexico, or Israel back to the Palestinians?
You're mixing up lots of different arguments. Remember that the current government of Taiwan was the government of China 56 years ago. The culture is entirely Chinese. The other poster asked me if they are ethnically Chinese in Taiwan, they are.
Your comparison of English speakers would be valid only if you had lived under the English government 56 years or so ago, and STILL claimed you were the legitimate government of England, as Taiwan claims it is the legitimate government of China.(Taiwan's official name is The Republic of China)
See, this situation in Taiwan and China is unique. Both sides claim to be the government of China. Making Taiwan a new country would be a radical change from the history of the area and I don't want us to pay for that. And as far as being a "friend", I for one think we Americans should list what our "friends" have given to us, before we start giving things to them. I think that will be a good rule for the future, and Taiwan has never given us anything.
24
posted on
03/13/2006 8:44:58 PM PST
by
starbase
(Understanding Written Propaganda (click "starbase" to learn 22 manipulating tricks!!))
To: Cringing Negativism Network
Direct translation is 'bullshizzle'...or something to that effect.
To: Windcatcher
To: maui_hawaii
When the Communist Party goes away the idea of unification isn't going to be that big of a deal anymore, except among some uber hardcore types.
Yes I agree with you. This could all just end with a dud, not a bang. We just have to hope the Communist Party "goes away".
27
posted on
03/13/2006 8:47:41 PM PST
by
starbase
(Understanding Written Propaganda (click "starbase" to learn 22 manipulating tricks!!))
To: starbase
Your comparison of English speakers would be valid only if you had lived under the English government 56 years or so ago, and STILL claimed you were the legitimate government of England, as Taiwan claims it is the legitimate government of China.(Taiwan's official name is The Republic of China)#1. Its not the same government. There is an entirely different party and governance now than there was back in the day.
The one major difference? Elections.
#2. You are over 10 years out of date. The official government of Taiwan removed any reference to 'claiming the mainland' over 10 years back.
To: maui_hawaii
Ok, I concede both your points. But it's still a province of another country. The other country will not ever concede it, and I don't see any benefit for us to prop Taiwan up.
Do you see any long term US benefit in that?
29
posted on
03/13/2006 8:53:43 PM PST
by
starbase
(Understanding Written Propaganda (click "starbase" to learn 22 manipulating tricks!!))
To: starbase
Thats the crux of the problem right there:
I assume you know something about the governance of old China...
The context of 'Zhong' and the philosophy of it...
You tell me what it means...and tell me whats changed...
The CCP thinks they are the only people who rule "China"...Thats the problem. Taiwan should never submit to their control.
To: blam
You can thank the Useless Nations for expelling Taiwan in 1971 in order to accomodate China.
31
posted on
03/13/2006 8:54:57 PM PST
by
WestVirginiaRebel
(A fool and his money are soon parted. Democrats love fools.)
To: starbase
Taiwan is independent of the mainland and has been for several decades. I have spent a lot of time over there myself and the outlook and freedoms enjoyed by a much larger percentage of the people there, as well as their political institutions serve to punctuate that reality. As to your slamming of them and their economy...hogwash. They are, per capita, orders of magintude ahead of their counterparts on the mainland. And that is for one reason...they are free.
As to the language, etc. making them Chinese (as in mainland Chinese), again, hogwash. Their political leanings, their outlook, their desires all set them apart from the mainland. I speak English and my ancestors come from England...but I am an American. The arguements for the most part that you are laying out there are strawmen and many of them suspiciously sound like the CCP talking points in many ways.
Either way, the United States will stand by Taiwan...you watch and see.
32
posted on
03/13/2006 8:56:25 PM PST
by
Jeff Head
(www.dragonsfuryseries.com)
To: maui_hawaii
Oh man, there goes that moonlighting job as an interpreter... :)
I thought that, would be more like " 亂講 "?
But I really couldn't swear to that.
To: starbase
"Ask them to demonstrate how they are not ethnically Chinese and they will be unable to do so. " I believe a lot of the Hakka Chinese went to Taiwan.
34
posted on
03/13/2006 8:59:19 PM PST
by
blam
To: starbase
The government on Taiwan does not claim to be the government of the mainland anymore...you are a decade out of date and therefore the arguement falls apart.
We can all hope that the CCP goes down and that the mainland arrives at a set of circumsatnces where they are free. At that point, a lot of what we are talking about will be moot.
...but I doubt the CCP is going to go down easily or lightly as long as they continue to bring in the amounts and types of capital that they are attracting.
35
posted on
03/13/2006 9:00:42 PM PST
by
Jeff Head
(www.dragonsfuryseries.com)
To: maui_hawaii
Well, I agree with you. However, the Taiwan independence types really need to come out and say it, instead of making up stories to deceive others.
To: WestVirginiaRebel
Followed by Carter's betrayal of the ROC within our own government.
37
posted on
03/13/2006 9:01:42 PM PST
by
Jeff Head
(www.dragonsfuryseries.com)
To: starbase
I see tons of benefit in it, I can't go into all of it here and now as it is getting late.
As for being a 'province of another country'... Taiwan has never been part of modern China. Since the Treaty of Shimoneski back in the late 1800s they were never even territories of China.
None the less the revisionist historians on the mainland seek to prop up the communist party viewpoint...
There are so many benefits to helping Taiwan...Because Taiwan is a ethnically Chinese society that has successfully integrated democratic ideals and commonly accepted truth into it.
That is SO HUGE. Standing alone that should do it, but there is even more than that.
You have a government in China that is held up by lies and propaganda...and is extremely repressive.
For the good of the Mainland and all the people on it, we need to foster change on the Mainland and we will do it by not giving up Taiwan.
That fundamental change and adoption will prevent a future massive culture clash.
By getting them off of their propaganda bs and into a world of truth we are creating a framework where we can cooperate and have peace. We can't have that as long as there is communist party propaganda telling their lies about us and others.
Yeah China got wronged in the past, but the reaction to that was extremely overarching and overreacting. They turned into a nation of extremists. Extremists are hard to get along with. Truth to the masses creates friends.
To: Jeff Head
The arguements for the most part that you are laying out there are strawmen and many of them suspiciously sound like the CCP talking points in many ways.
I knew someone would say this. Oh well, I also said I thought the word "Gentile" was discriminatory and someone accused me of being a secret Jew-hater neo-Nazi. It's dangerous around here!
They are, per capita, orders of magnitude ahead of their counterparts on the mainland.
I wasn't comparing them to the mainland, I was comparing them to what they have been in the recent past. The economy does stink in Taiwan. That's why Cheng Shwe Bians poll numbers are 15%-20% and why the DPP was crushed in this fall's elections. In 2008, you can be sure that Ma Jyou Ying will be president and the KMT will control the Yuan, all for economic reasons.
Their political leanings, their outlook, their desires all set them apart from the mainland.
Fair enough, I'll concede to anyone on this point, but the Mainland Chinese WILL NOT. The reality of that point is my main point on the ethnic question.
I speak English and my ancestors come from England...but I am an American.
See my above point on the uniquely intertwined nature of the government and culture in the Taiwan and Mainland situation.
I do respect you and your books, I hope you won't paint me as a secret commie just because I have an alternative view of the situation.
39
posted on
03/13/2006 9:06:49 PM PST
by
starbase
(Understanding Written Propaganda (click "starbase" to learn 22 manipulating tricks!!))
To: Codeograph
I lived in Shanghai for two years unitl beginning of this year, never had trouble accessing FR. The Chinese are not particularily interested in blocking foreign sites in non-Chinese language. Most of the censoring is on the Chinese language sites.
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