China hits back at US criticism [Barf Alert]

BBC ^ | Thursday, 9 March 2006 | BBC

[indcons]

China has hit back at US criticism of its human rights record by releasing its own document of alleged US abuses.

Washington said in its annual rights report that China was one of the world's "most systematic" offenders.

In return Beijing urged the US to "look squarely" at its own problems, such as a high murder rate and jail population.

While China often rejects US criticism of its rights record, this exchange is especially sensitive due to President Hu Jintao's visit to the US next month.

The report issued by China's cabinet, the State Council, on Thursday listed "a multitude of cases to show the serious violations of human rights both in and outside the US," according to state news agency Xinhua.

"As in previous years, the US State Department pointed the finger at human rights situations in more than 190 countries and regions, but kept silent on the violations of human rights in the United States," the report said.

It described alleged abuses including secret surveillance, police abuse, racial discrimination and wrongful convictions.

"The United States has always boasted itself as the model of democracy, and hawked its mode of democracy to the rest of the world, but in fact, American 'democracy' is always one for the wealthy and a 'game for the rich'," it added.

Increased censorship

In its own report, issued on Wednesday, Washington was equally scathing about Beijing's human rights record, saying it "remained poor".

[monkeywrench]

"the thought police have sniffed you out. Better start parroting the "correct" paranoia. But, you must admit, it's entertaining."

It is interesting that not accepting chicom propaganda is considered paranoia or thought control. On a conservative forum, yet. He's definately in the wrong spot.

[Gengis Khan]

Tomorrow 90% of Tibet will be Han Chinese considering the rate at which Chinese Government is constructing railroads etc, purging and uprooting local Tibetans and settling more Mandarin speaking Han Chinese from the mainland. Same with the Siberian region of Russia. And then we would be hearing the same argument from the Chinese that its Chinese territory since it has Han majority.

I see you have skirted the issue of Tibetan occupation. You admit that Tibetan occupation is illegal right?

China even claims Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh and Kashmir ans still (illegally) occupies Aksai Chin based on what claim? Some Ming, Ching or Ling dynasty had a dream that they conquered and ruled those areas for a few hundred years and so those areas are rightfully Chinese territory?

Tibet, Uighuristan and Inner Mongolia were never Chinese territory at any point of time in history. They are still occupied Chinese territory.

"We all have a right to independence, but you have to be able to back it up with blood, like the American Revolution. Richard Gere and liberal New Agers isn't enough."

Chinese Communism will not last forever, it will fall like a house of cards very soon. When China itself will be free, Tibet, Uighuristan and Inner Mongolia will follow.

[indcons]

Exactly...and he is defending somebody who claims that Taiwan, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and Uighiristan have no right to independence.

FR is a bulwark of support for Taiwan; wonder how some people can support such visible ChiCom propaganda against Taiwan (an independent country) and other occupied territories.

[indcons]

"Chinese Communism will not last forever, it will fall like a house of cards very soon."

I hope you are right htere. However, the ChiComs are busy striking alliances with people who are as inhuman as them - the Islamists.

"When China itself will be free, Tibet, Uighuristan and Inner Mongolia will follow."

Amen to that. When that happens, the brave people of Tibet, Taiwan, and the occupied territories will finally be free from oppression (forced abortions of non-Han ChiComs, arbitary trials and executions, and religious oppression). I am praying for that glorious day.

[Gengis Khan]

In the Peoples Republic China there is a lot more freedom. You have freedom to spread Chinese government propaganda (thats freedom of speech).

You have freedom of getting tortured or killed for being a Tibetan Buddhist, for worshipping Dalai Lama, for being a Falung Gong member or for being a Christian (thats freedom of Religion).

You have the freedom of getting shot at in a public square if you protest in favour of democracy. (thats freedom of expression).

You see you have so much freedom in China..........

[gogoman]

Chinese Communism will not last forever, it will fall like a house of cards very soon. When China itself will be free, Tibet, Uighuristan and Inner Mongolia will follow.

According to you, "China" must be the size of Colorado. When Communism falls, Tibet, Sinkiang (not "Uighuristan"), and Inner Mongolia will still be part of China. Why? Because they predated communism as being part of China. They were part of the Qing Dynasty, and all Chinese nation-states following the Qing Dynasty have claimed its territory, including the Republic of China. The only way they will not be part of China would be if they declared independence. All declarations of independence should be backed up by military resolve, not empty talk.

Below is an official map of the Republic of China (Taiwan) published in 1998 by the ROC Department of Land Administration:

Official Map of the Republic of China (1912 to present). Republic of China isn't Communist, they predated the Communists by 40 years. It even includes Mongolia, and Inner Mongolia is divided into 3 provinces (Hsingan, Chahar, Suiyuan).

And then we would be hearing the same argument from the Chinese that its Chinese territory since it has Han majority.

Wasn't that the argument for Kosovo? for the United States of America? It's freakin' international common law. I've skirted the issue of Tibet, because I don't pretend to know much in detail about it, hence I concentrate on what I am very familiar with: Inner Mongolia. Inner Mongolia has been settled with Han Chinese for hundreds of years. To say that Inner Mongolia belongs to the Mongolians is like saying the US belongs to Indian nations. It just isn't going to fly; the conquest of that territory was achieved a long time ago, and it was done by the Manchurians.

[monkeywrench]

"The only way they will not be part of China would be if they declared independence. All declarations of independence should be backed up by military resolve, not empty talk. "

When the freedom denying chicoms fall, nobody will need to use force to back up any ideas of independence they may harbor.

[indcons]

Stop comparing the USA to China. You keep doing this in each thread as if it is the most natural comparison. One country is the bastion of freedom in the world and the other is the bastion of intolerence, barbarism, and religious hatred.

Your opposition to Taiwanese independence is also revealing.
And, Tibet did not predate the Communist takeover of China. Your outright lies are frankly revealing more and more of your ChiCom agenda. Good job - keep it up. That way, more FReepers will know where your sympathies lie (enough of us already do).

All of you use the same talking points. That's what happens when you don't come from a free society and don't have the ability to think on your own.

[Gengis Khan]

That map looks like a joke. It shows all of Mongolia (not just inner Mongolia), Tibet, Uighuristan, parts of Kashmir, much of North East India as part of China. This is definitely not the map of China (past, present or future). None of the areas I mentioned were ever under the occupation of any of the Chinese dynansties. Most of these places do not even have Han majority for China to make a rightful claim. This is a bogus map probably comming straight from the Chicom propaganda press and only borrowed by Taiwan. This map is more proof of Chicom hunger for more territory and playing the regional hegemon.


"Wasn't that the argument for Kosovo? for the United States of America?"

You tell me what argument was that.

" I've skirted the issue of Tibet, because I don't pretend to know much in detail about it, "

Tibet is a brazen occupation by the so called "Peoples Liberation Army". When true "Liberation" will come in China (i.e.) when the oppressive Communist structure and government will fall so will its military just as it did in the Soviet Union. There will be no PLA to prevent countries from becoming independent.

[indcons]

See post #39....claiming to be from Taiwan is another standard credibility enhancer for ChiComs. However, when push comes to shove, these folks reveal their true identity.

[gogoman]

Your opposition to Taiwanese independence is also revealing.

Yeah, that at least 50% of Taiwanese don't want full independence. You are more interested in splitting up China than bringing freedom and democracy to China. You would rather have Sinkiang become a muslim terrorist state called "Uighuristan", that's how much freedom and democracy you love. Do you believe the India-Pakistan split was a good thing? What about the millions that died in the course of this?

Democracy must be developed from a grassroots level. The state is never the best actors of democracy.

[gogoman]

That map looks like a joke. It shows all of Mongolia (not just inner Mongolia), Tibet, Uighuristan, parts of Kashmir, much of North East India as part of China. This is definitely not the map of China (past, present or future). None of the areas I mentioned were ever under the occupation of any of the Chinese dynansties.

No, that map is NOT a joke. It's the official map of the Republic of China (Taiwan). If you go to Taiwan's consulates, you will see that map on the walls. And to that last sentence of yours above, I have two words for you: Qing Dynasty.

I'm going to end my part of this discussion. It's not going to change your mind. We have more pressing issues in the world to talk about than "Uighuristan" and Inner Mongolia. Inner Mongolian goat cheese is probably a better subject to talk about than this brouhaha.

[indcons]

You have this tendency to selectively quote from posts. So let me remind you. You made the fantastic claim that Tibet was a part of China even before the ChiComs came to power. When challenged on this lie, you simply decline to address it.

Well, you seem to be the new MurryMom...welcome. I am sure you are going to amuse us for a while (as ckwilliams did). Just FYI: another ChiComs got zotted earlier this morning for making asinine comparisons between the US and China (similar to what you are doing now).

What's that stuff about democracy at the grassroots? Remember these pics? Or do you think these pics are US propaganda too? /sarc

[indcons]

Funny to see somebody who started diverting the thread from his very first pious (I guess that is not the PC word to describe PRC followers) post remark about changing the subject...LOL

[Republican Party Reptile]

Don't be such obvious idiots. Whatever argument you may have on the politics, policies, and strategic goals of communist China, keep in mind that China has only been the communist People's Republic for little over 50 years, whereas the broader Chinese history will go back 3000 + years.

Even if, heck, especially if you want to consider China as strategic enemy # 1 and # 1 threat to the new world order, well, you ought actually try to understand their motivation (however you may disagree with it) a little better.

We laugh, (not infrequently, right here on FR), when we see others (China, radical Islam, Hugo Chavez, Euroweenies, take your pick) who make dismissive comments about the U.S. with obvious lack of knowledge and misunderstanding of U.S. policies and motivations, oh, how they mis-read us and underestimate us, we say. But quite a few people seem quite willing to do the same when it comes to how we view THEM. So much easier just to call for blasting the evil commies - and just about as useful as say, radical Islam's call the destroy the great Santan. As we say in Texas, all hat, no cattle.

To somehow trying to make all your argument as if China has only existed as the communist People's Republic and all Chinese actions are to be viewed and interpreted only in the context of the 50 year existence of the PRC is myopic and misleading. Especially on territorial issues which all have roots going hundreds, if not thousands of years back before the founding of the PRC in 1950.

When the Nationalist Republican revolution of 1911 overturned the last Chinese Imperial dynasty (Qing) in 1911, the Republic of China defined its territory as those defined by its predecessor state, the Qing Dynasty. The communist People's Republic, in defeating the Nationalist Republican in the 1945-49 Chinese Civil War, essentially takes the same positions - that the modern boundary of China is defined by the moment of founding of Republic of China in 1911 and the territories controlled by the Chinese government in 1911. See a map of the Qing dynasty as of founding of the Republic of China in 1911 below. (and if you don't like the CNN map, go ahead and search for Qing dynasty map on the net, they are all more or less the same):

Hence stemmed pretty much all of China's territorial claim and disputes - the post 1911 Republican government was weak or practically nonexistent for the decades between 1911 and the 1940's when China was mired in internal strives and territory divisions ruled by various warlords, much of the fringe territories were self-rule, under foreign (Russian, Japanese, British) influence if not outright control, or more or less became de facto independent.

Question is, did that create a permanent fragmentation whereby the 1911 territory, which has defined and recognized as "China" since the 17th Century, was no longer recognized as "China"? Or was the period between 1911 and 1949 merely a few decades of temporary lose of central authority and was "corrected" as soon as there existed a strong enough force to reunify China to the 1911 borders again.

Yes, Tibet was pretty much self-ruled between 1911 and 1950, and Tibet probably come closest to be recognized as a separate soverign state during those years. But Inner Mongolia and Uigherstan? Please, these never even came close to have actually existed as viable, recognized soverign states. Here is another interesting map, from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point (from the school's history curriculum), defining what is effectively "China" between 1920 and 1950, it does exclude Tibet, but Inner Mongolia and Singkang (I suppose that's your definition of Ughirstan) are all considered integral to China even during those decades of non-stop civil and foreign war and even lacking a real central government in China.

USMA China 1920 - 1950 map link

On people wanting "independence", fact is, the world as a whole has never been very consistent about it - it's easy to say ALL people have the right to self-determination. But geopolitical and historical reality says so otherwise. Sometime you get it, sometime you don't. Why are we in Iraq trying to hold together the country that was essentially a British imperial invention and not let the Kurds have their Kurdistan? Why won't India let Kashmir be independent? Should an Inner Mongolian activist agitating for Inner Mongolia independence and maybe kicking out the Han interlopers who have moved in during the last hundred years get the same prop as the native Hawaiian activist agitating for Hawaii independence and maybe kicking out the non-Polynesian interlopers who have been moving in and becoming a majority in the last hundred years? The answer to each one of them are going to be complicated and dependent upon a host of varying historical and geopolitical factors. Unfortunately we don't live in a world where everything you want can be achieved on a slogan.

[monkeywrench]

Well, considering the prc are the ones in charge and making the decisions, they're the ones relevant to our discussion.

I haven't discussed chinese history at all. So save it.

As far as them being strategic threat #1 to the US and our interests, yes I believe it, as does the pentagon. They've made the threats and are lining up their pieces on the board.

They're the main reason NK hasn't disarmed and they support irans and pakistans nuke programs. They're the main proliferators of arms. Everywhere they go, hell follows. Sudan, nigeria, etc. Follow the trail.

[indcons]

Thanks for your detailed post.

Your analysis about Tibet is wrong though. Tibet has been an independent country for far longer than it has been a ChiCom colony. You need to get your history straight before calling other "obvious idiots."

What about Taiwan then? Taiwan was never a part of mainland Chinese history and neither were the Spartly Islands. Doesn't prevent the ChiComs from claiming that both territories are theirs, does it?

You may have your sympathy for the ChiComs. But be careful - appeasement of the ChiComs is dangerous and can't be satisfied by selective rewriting of history to deny freedom to certain peoples (just because the Han ChiComs want it that way). I am amused to see that you haven't mentioned a word about the genocide of the Tibetians, Inner Mongolians, and the Uighirs. Why does this genocide continue if China is one country as you claim?

[indcons]

I wonder how many of these folks have even heard of the "String of Pearls" ChiCom plan.

[monkeywrench]

I don't think they care. It's just business for them.

[indcons]

Are the non-Polynesians still killing Hawaiians to this day? Well, the ChiComs are killing Tibetians, Uighirs, and Mongolians.