Evolution Bill Stirs Debate (Oklahoma House votes 77-10 to permit alternative views)

Associated Press ^ | March 2, 2006 | Tim Talley

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Evolution bill stirs debate on origin of life, religion

TIM TALLEY
Associated Press

OKLAHOMA CITY - While other states are backing away from teaching alternatives to evolution, the Oklahoma House passed a bill Thursday encouraging schools to expose students to alternative views about the origin of life.

The measure, passed on a 77-10 vote, gives teachers the right to teach "the full range of scientific views on the biological or chemical origins of life." The measure stops short of requiring the teaching of "intelligent design" alongside the theory of evolution in science classes.

Its author, Rep. Sally Kern, R-Oklahoma City, said evolution is taught in some classrooms as if it were scientific fact although the theory, developed in the 19th century by Charles Darwin, is neither observable, repeatable or testable and is not solid science.

"They are getting a one-sided view of evolution," said Kern, a former teacher. "Let's teach good, honest science."

Critics said the lessons would be more appropriate in religion or philosophy classes than in science class. They said the measure would take control from local school boards on developing lesson plans and violates the constitutional prohibition on government endorsement of specific religious views.

"I think we're about to open a slippery slope here," said Rep. Danny Morgan, D-Prague. In December, a federal judge blocked attempts to teach intelligent design in high school biology classes in Dover, Pa.

"We're going to be right back in the courthouse," Morgan said.

Kern said her bill does not promote a particular religious point of view but promotes critical thinking by students by exposing them to all sides of a scientific debate.

"This bill is not about a belief in God. It is not about religion. It is about science," Kern said. "I'm not asking for Sunday school to be in a science class."

Evolution teaches that all organisms are connected by genealogy and have changed through time through several processes, including natural selection.

Intelligent design teaches that life is so well-ordered that it must have been created by a higher power. Critics argue that the theory is merely repackaged creationism, which teaches that the Earth and all life were created by God.

Supporters said exposing students to different viewpoints will create lively classroom debate.

"Do you think you come from a monkeyman?" said Rep. Tad Jones, R-Claremore. "Did we come from slimy algae 4.5 billion years ago or are we a unique creation of God? I think it's going to be exciting for students to discuss these issues."

Opponents said alternative theories on the origin of life are a matter of faith, not science. "God truly is the creator of heaven and Earth, but I can't prove that," said Rep. Al Lindley, D-Oklahoma City.

The bill now goes to the state Senate, where similar legislation has been defeated in the past.

On Tuesday, lawmakers in Utah defeated a bill requiring public school students be told that evolution is not empirically proven. In Ohio, school curriculum is undergoing change following the Pennsylvania ruling that intelligent design should not be taught alongside evolution in public schools.

Kansas has adopted language to encourage students to explore arguments against evolution, but the standards have not been tied to any lesson plans or statewide testing.

[xzins]

OP, there must be training that prepares people to better than minimum standards for defense of the nation. It is a legitimate concern.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Well, there we immediately diverge. I believe in the philosophical tradition of the enlightenment and the social contract, on which our nation is founded.

What has that to do with Coercive, Theft-funded, Government-Enforced Publik Skooling?

Nothing, frankly.

So child-labor laws are wrong?

If the labor in question does not involve some sort of Assault on the child? Provided that is stipulated, then yes -- most child labor laws are wrong.

This is why most child-labor laws allow an exemption for kids working on the farm, for example -- at the end of the day, you're not going to prosecute a farmer for employing his children in various chores around the farm; because even though farming can be one of the most back-breaking occupations around, the fact is that children have always worked on the farm, and always will. "Society's" claims to an (un-earned, and frankly usurpatious) Authority over children superior to that of the Parents can readily be shown to be false in principle; all you have to do, is visit a family farm.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

OP, there must be training that prepares people to better than minimum standards for defense of the nation. It is a legitimate concern.

Xzins, are you concerned that the Armed Servics are currently unable to properly train raw recruits for the Military duties required of them -- even given the fact that they have proven themselves able to do so, even with an unfortunately-substantial number of barely-GED-holding juvenile delinquents (fine products of our existent Publik Skooling system)? The Armed Services have already proven themselves able to turn the dross of the Publik Skools into tempered steel; I doubt they could do any worse with the products of a competitive, free-market schooling system (Arbitrary Government "Standards" or no).

Incidentally, X, if National Defense is your primary concern: I could counter-argue that a Free-Market educational system would very likely provide Armed Service recruiters with a much greater pool of "pre-prepped", "pre-trained", ideal Volunteer Recruits than most any imaginable Socialized Schooling system -- unless you think that *privately-funded Military Schools* would somehow receive less applicants than they do today, if every Parent had that $7,000 per-child, per-year of Gubmint Skool money to spend on the School of his choice!

[Right Wing Professor]

This is why most child-labor laws allow an exemption for kids working on the farm, for example -- at the end of the day, you're not going to prosecute a farmer for employing his children in various chores around the farm; because even though farming can be one of the most back-breaking occupations around, the fact is that children have always worked on the farm, and always will.

The fact that, probably for political reasons, we exempt 1% of children from child-labor laws on their own parents' farm, does not invalidate the idea of child-labor laws.

[johnnyb_61820]

"Crickets still chirping on "Where are the pre-flood fish?" among many other points."

They were answered. You missed them. The flood washed out most existing sediments down to the basement rock.

Generally, however, endlessly answering questions that have been answered before is not what I usually find useful.

[VadeRetro]

The flood washed out most existing sediments down to the basement rock.

A nonsense answer. Were there no oceans before the flood? If not, where did the oceanic fish species live? All of the Precambrian (pre-flood in your model) animal fossils are oceanic. They're just very strange-looking and there are no fish.

Even in the Cambrian, which begins the flood in your model, the life forms remain bizarre. The Cambrian Burgess Shale has Anomalocaris, which grew up to two feet long and had hard parts at least as dense as fish bones. It is an oceanic environment of sorts, but there are no fish.

Where are the fish? Where are these "basement deposits?" Shouldn't they exist somewhere, all the Precambian people, apes, primates, insectivores, mammal-like reptiles, birds, dinosaurs, amphibians, and fish? We have to throw in crustaceans, insects, molluscs, flowering plants, etc.

Why are all the flowering plants down in some basement deposit along with the pre-flood stegosaurs? Were they better at running for high ground than the already oceanic Spriggina (possible soft-bodies ancestor of trilobites)?

Why should flowering plants appear in the Cretaceous, (late flood), before the dinosaurs disappear? Shouldn't they be everywhere up and down the column? Shouldn't most things?

There is no particular reason in your model for that huge chunk of the geologic column to be finely layered. There is no particular reason dense layers should ever superpose upon lighter rock, as the lighter rock cannot have hardened in a flood. There is no way to get glaciation, or hardened raindrop imprints, or dry-land volcanism burying dry-land life forms in an underwater world. The big-boned animals (some of them) are in the middle of the flood, starting with some large amphibians and early reptiles. Later, we notice some mammals (small). Later yet, we notice dinosaurs (various sizes). This is all unaccountable and ridiculous within the model of a one-year flood. Woodmorappe's ranting and raging obfuscations against anyone who notices these inconvenient points do not make much of a scholarly defense.

The sort found in the geologic column is an evolution sort. That's why the most complex and intelligent thing comes in, not at some basement, but the day before yesterday in geologic times. Not just after the K-T boundary, 65 million years ago, but--generously!--about 1/30th of that time.

That's not an exaggeration, putting "First hominids" at the very bottom. Not at the scale of 4.5 billion years.

You have to realize, evolution predicted most of the phenomena you are refusing to even address. We have a theory of great explanatory power. You have a need to duck most of the questions. You'll never beat the first thing with the second thing.

[js1138]

William Buckley used to say he wouldn't debate a Communist because they are simply not honest. I think that after you have hade your points you should take a tip from Bill.

It is one think to present facts and arguments; quite another thing to assume there is anyone on the other side concerned with honesty or integrity.

[xzins]

I could counter-argue that a Free-Market educational system would very likely provide Armed Service recruiters with a much greater pool of "pre-prepped", "pre-trained", ideal Volunteer Recruits than most any imaginable Socialized Schooling system --

I'm not arguing for government schools. I'm arguing for government published minimum STANDARDS.

The must be able to run so fast, jump so high, lift so much, spell so well, cipher to X degree, know real world facts, understand the locations and nature of other countries, etc; and be trainable in other languages.

To have the military publish such standards and a have online a series of lessons downloadable free to every American family would be national defense-based.

[VadeRetro]

By the way, when the fish do show up, they are exceedingly primitive looking, between a cephalopod chordate starting to grow a real head and a thing that is almost a lamprey.

Cambrian Poissons.

(Lampreys are about the most primitive modern true fish around. Their hatchlings closely resemble primitive cephalochordates like Amphioxus.)

Why do these things keep happening? Evolution predicts it would be this way. Your flood story doesn't handle this kind of thing well at all, especially when you let Woodmorappe tackle it.

[js1138]

I'm not arguing for government schools. I'm arguing for government published minimum STANDARDS.

The government of Florida has such standards. They are called FCATS. Schools get funded based on their performance, and teachers are next.

[VadeRetro]

William Buckley used to say he wouldn't debate a Communist because they are simply not honest. I think that after you have hade your points you should take a tip from Bill.

We have probably arrived at a "He's dead, Jim" stage.

[johnnyb_61820]

"Even in the Cambrian, which begins the flood in your model, the life forms remain bizarre. "

Ocean bottom dwellers usually are.

"Where are these "basement deposits?""

What do you mean? The basement rock is usually the precambrian.

"Shouldn't they exist somewhere, all the Precambian people, apes, primates, insectivores, mammal-like reptiles, birds, dinosaurs, amphibians, and fish?"

You should try actually reading my posts. All of the pre-flood fossils were destroyed by the flood. Where else do you think the flood sediments came from? And, since there was less catastrophism before the flood, it is likely that there were fewer fossilization events as well. The animals that were alive at the time of the flood now form much of the present geologic column.

"Why should flowering plants appear in the Cretaceous, (late flood), before the dinosaurs disappear? Shouldn't they be everywhere up and down the column? Shouldn't most things?"

Large-scale water does not mix the way you are supposing. The "bathtub model" of the flood assumes that what happens in small amounts of water also happens in large ones. A lot of the fossil sorting is based on ecological zonation. It is not a completely developed model. There are still unanswered questions. But that is the whole point of research. We have the testimony of nearly every culture in the world that there was a worldwide flood. Figuring out the mechanisms that occur during such a flood is precisely the point of creation research.

"There is no particular reason in your model for that huge chunk of the geologic column to be finely layered."

It isn't "finely layered". It's grossly layered.

One of the things that helped me see the validity of the flood model (I used to be an old-Earth creationist) is that the geological column is actually better sorted than what we know about real life (and probably much, MUCH better sorted if you take into account all the regions we don't know about). What I mean is this. Take the Coelacanth. It's last appearance in the fossil record was HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO, and was used as an INDEX FOSSIL. Yet, it is still with us. The Wollemi Pine's last appearance in the fossil record was 65 MILLION YEARS AGO. Yet, it is still with us.

How does an INDEX FOSSIL work if it is still alive? Could it be that what it is indexing is not time, but perhaps a physical feature that was buried in the flood?

Likewise, the Dinosaurs have been seen in history in nearly every culture of the world, with pictures and sculptures of them being depicted. There are even modern biologists who claim to have seen Saurapod dinosaurs. Yet they were supposed to have died out 65 million years ago by the fossil record.

The gladiator insect was supposed to be extinct 65 million years ago, it's alive today.

Shrimp, likewise. Except that the ancient version was renamed "Antrimpos".

Likewise, you often have numerous incomplete ecosystems represented by the fossil record.

All of this suggests to me that the reason for the fossil record sorting is not time but something else. It is true that not all mechanisms of the flood, especially in sorting, are known, but we are increasing in our knowledge.

[VadeRetro]

It isn't "finely layered". It's grossly layered.

I gather you don't get out much.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

The fact that, probably for political reasons, we exempt 1% of children from child-labor laws on their own parents' farm, does not invalidate the idea of child-labor laws. -- Right Wing Professor

Sure it does.

If you are willing to subject Children to back-breaking Farm Labor, then you really AREN'T against Child-Labor Laws in Principle.

You ain't fooling me, RWP. The fact is, you don't really give a damn one way or the other about the "Farming Exemption" -- you were just hoping to use Child-Labor Laws as a "Gotcha Argument" against the Libertarian-Christian Critique of Publik Skooling, and so defend your Evolutionist Gubmint-Skool Monopoly against Creationist Free-Market Alternatives.

OOPS!! You failed again. No surprise there.

---

But, heck... in the spirit of Christian Charity, I shall give you ANOTHER chance to prove yourself Utterly Wrong (yet again), and to hang yourself by your own rope (yet again).

In keeping with my belief in the Biblical Prohibition against Assault, I shall stipulate in advance that if a Parent knowingly places his Child at risk of Injury, without Parental Supervision, then he may become guilty of Child-Abuse or Negligence Laws (which are Justifiable extensions of Biblical Laws, from Exodus and Deuteronomy, against Abuse and Criminal Negligence -- "Kids are People, Too").

HOWEVER, if no risk of Injury is incumbent to the task -- then what, exactly, is your Moral Objection against Child Labor?

In the Third World, "Child Labor" is often the difference between Starvation and Survival -- how can that be wrong?

And for that matter, even in my own Family, "Child Labor" is practically a Tradition -- I myself worked as a young teen-ager for a successful Christian Artist, cutting display mats, constructing frames, and laminating prints; and my Kid Brother began his working career even before his teen-age years (if memory serves), working in the Basement Shop of a Presbyterian Entrepreneur, copying Turkey-Shooting VCR-tapes for his mass-market Hunting customers.

I don't know that either Entrepreneur ever reported us the the Government; not only did they probably fail to pay Social Security Taxes, but they may well have been in violation of ALL KINDS of "Child Labor" Laws (especially my Kid Brother, who began working when he was about twelve -- Lord's sake, I love that Kid. I'm looking forward to being the Best Man at his wedding).

SO WHAT?! I occasionally burned the tips of my fingers on the laminating machine. SO WHAT? My Kid Brother, from the age of twelve, could slide in a bunch of VCR tapes, hit the "COPY" button, and then wrap and stack a bunch of Hunting Videos for $5 bucks an hour -- at the time, he was thrilled with $5 bucks an hour! SO WHAT? Should he not have been "allowed" to work, according to the Child Labor Laws?!

WRONG. My Mother knew what he was doing, knew it presented essentially no Risk of Injury, and was willing to allow him to use his After-School time (once he had completed his Private Christian-Academy homework) doing something Productive and Profitable for a Christian Entrepreneur.

Bollocks on the Government, and Bollocks on the Government's "Child-Labor" Laws. On those rare occasions when Parents subject their children to actual Risk of Injury, without Parental Supervision -- then we can deal with that, via normal Criminal Abuse and Negligence statutes (there is, thus, little need for "Child Labor" Laws).

But excepting those supremely-rare examples -- then Parents Uber Alles.

Abolish all Publik Skooling, and then return to Parents the $7,000 per-year, per-child which we currently spend on Publik Skooling -- to spend upon the school of their Choice.

---

Of course, if Free-Market Schooling exists, then Evolutionism in America WILL DIE. This is a Simple Fact of Supply and Demand -- about 40% of Americans want "Creation Only" Science Teaching; about 45% of Americans want "Dual Model" Science Teaching (which is acceptable to Creationists - we're willing to fight it out in the free market of ideas); only 15% of Americans, at most, desire "Evolution Only" Science Teaching.

If Publik Skool Dollars are ever turned over to the Discretion of the Parents, then Indoctrination in Evolutionism will become a matter of Supply and Demand -- and amongst Parents, there is virtually NO DEMAND for Evolution-Onlyism.

So, the Evolutionist Theory will die on the vine... unable to attract Free-Market Demand.

But that's a reasonable price to pay for Intellectual Freedom -- wouldn't you agree, RWP??

Best, OP

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I'm not arguing for government schools. I'm arguing for government published minimum STANDARDS. The must be able to run so fast, jump so high, lift so much, spell so well, cipher to X degree, know real world facts, understand the locations and nature of other countries, etc; and be trainable in other languages. To have the military publish such standards and a have online a series of lessons downloadable free to every American family would be national defense-based.

Robert E. Lee, arguably the greatest General ever produced by American Military Academy, required NO such "Government Standards" in Primary Education.

Neither did George S. Patton (educated at a Privately-Funded Military School, VMI), the only American to arguably-exceed Lee in Tactical brilliance; nor did Douglas MacArthur (educated at Home and upon Military Bases) the only American to arguably-exceed Lee in Strategic brilliance (and the only American ever regarded as almost a living "god" by two races of American-conquered peoples, the Philippinos and the Japanese).

If we have produced such Military Geniuses as have been recorded in the Annals of History without your Federally-Imposed "Government Standards", Xzins -- then what Need have we of these Federally-Imposed "Government Standards" at all?

Screw the Government.

AGAIN: I will counter-argue that a Free-Market educational system would almost certainly provide Armed Service recruiters with a much greater pool of "pre-prepped", "pre-trained", ideal Volunteer Recruits than most any imaginable Socialized Schooling system -- unless you think that *privately-funded Military Schools* (such as those which trained George Patton!) would somehow receive less applicants than they do today, if every Parent had that $7,000 per-child, per-year of Gubmint Skool money to spend on the School of his choice!

Xzins, if you REALLY WANT to screw something up -- then, yes, let's turn it over to the Government.

BUT -- If you TRULY DESIRE the best-possible National Defense: then let's go with what has worked before, what has always worked: Home-Schooling and Private-Military Schooling, no Federal Bureaucrats need apply. This is where the Lees and the Pattons and the MacArthurs COME FROM. You really wanna kill the proven and time-honored "Goose that lays the Golden Eggs", in favor of your vaunted "Federal Standards"?

TOTAL PRIVATIZATION. The Privately-Funded Military Schools will survive (and indeed flourish; if every Parent has an extra $7,000-per-year to spend on his Child's education, then the Military Academies will be in position to select the creme-de-la-creme). Let's go with what has worked before, what has always worked: Home-Schooling and Private-Military Schooling, no Federal Bureaucrats need apply.

Best, OP

[VadeRetro]

TIME CUBE placemarker.

[jude24]

Home-Schooling and Private-Military Schooling, no Federal Bureaucrats need apply. This is where the Lees and the Pattons and the MacArthurs COME FROM.

That worksorder to pull off. Make private or home education the default, and you'll see a lot more students who, because their parents couldn't care less about their educations, neither do they. All but the most selective (and pricey) private schools will turn into what the public schools are now because of the influx of students with less-motivated parents. Some parents will just drop off the map into "home-schooling," take the check, and cash it for that nice 52"-plasma TV. You think things are bad now; just wait till you see a permanent underclass created because of this libertarian pipe-dream. That underclass will be a bunch of frustrated have-nots - a discontented proletariat. That should frighten you, because a Marxist revolution will then be inevitible. An education which provides the means for upwards mobility is part of the price we pay for capitalism. Posted on 03/12/2006 11:45:30 AM EST by jude24 ("The Church is a harlot, but she is my mother." - St. Augustine) To: (use semi-colons to separate multiple recipients) OrthodoxPresbyterian; xzins; RightWingProfessor Your Reply: (HTML auto-detected, see help for more information) Home-Schooling and Private-Military Schooling, no Federal Bureaucrats need apply. This is where the Lees and the Pattons and the MacArthurs COME FROM.

That works when Mr. and Mrs. Patton, and Mr. and Mrs. MacArthur value education. But, come over to the District Attorney's Office where I interned last summer. Look at how many kids are stuck in the cycle of dependancy because their parents don't value education and self-reliance. Do you really think home-schooling and private-schooling will work with parents who don't give a damn?

Home-schooling and private schooling works now because those groups are to an extent self-selecting. You don't just cycle into either by default; both require an up-front committment of significant time, resources, sacrifice, and dedication in order to pull off. Make private or home education the default, and you'll see a lot more students who, because their parents couldn't care less about their educations, neither do they. All but the most selective (and pricey) private schools will turn into what the public schools are now because of the influx of students with less-motivated parents. Some parents will just drop off the map into "home-schooling," take the check, and cash it for that nice 52"-plasma TV.

You think things are bad now; just wait till you see a permanent underclass created because of this libertarian pipe-dream. That underclass will be a bunch of frustrated have-nots - a discontented proletariat. That should frighten you, because a Marxist revolution will then be inevitible.

An education which provides the means for upwards mobility is part of the price we pay for capitalism. Tagline: (optional, printed after your name on post): I have already previewed or do not wish to preview this composition. Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts. In the News/Activi when Mr. and Mrs. Patton, and Mr. and Mrs. MacArthur value education. But, come over to the District Attorney's Office where I interned last summer. Look at how many kids are stuck in the cycle of dependancy because their parents don't value education and self-reliance. Do you really think home-schooling and private-schooling will work with parents who don't give a damn?

Home-schooling and private schooling works now because those groups are to an extent self-selecting. You don't just cycle into either by default; both require an up-front committment of significant time, resources, sacrifice, and dedication in order to pull off. Make private or home education the default, and you'll see a lot more students who, because their parents couldn't care less about their educations, neither do they. All but the most selective (and pricey) private schools will turn into what the public schools are now because of the influx of students with less-motivated parents. Some parents will just drop off the map into "home-schooling," take the check, and cash it for that nice 52"-plasma TV.

You think things are bad now; just wait till you see a permanent underclass created because of this libertarian pipe-dream. That underclass will be a bunch of frustrated have-nots - a discontented proletariat. That should frighten you, because a Marxist revolution will then be inevitible.

An education which provides the means for upwards mobility is part of the price we pay for capitalism.

[hosepipe]

[ the Oklahoma House passed a bill Thursday encouraging schools to expose students to alternative views about the origin of life. ]

AND who is it that will literally FORCE the NEA to adopt this new "law".. The Teachers Unions and school administrations might fire or discourage any NEA member from following thru..

NO!!.. its no brainer, they WILL discourage any member from following thru on this.. On the other hand class action suits can provide much entertainment.. because the OK NEA will not take this lieing down.. but bending over..

[jude24]

I have NO idea what that first paragraph was. Ignore it.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

That worksorder to pull off.

Um... Jude... some of these are not, actually, English words.

Respectfully, how am I supposed to respond to this?

Make private or home education the default, and you'll see a lot more students who, because their parents couldn't care less about their educations, neither do they.

You're assuming that -- in a Competitive, Free-Market Environment -- things could be possibly worse than the existing Publik Skool System.

Ha, Ha, Ha. Pull the other one, it has bells on.

I am going to assume that you are Joking. Do your REALLY think that things could POSSIBLY be worse, in a Free-Market System?

Some parents will just drop off the map into "home-schooling," take the check, and cash it for that nice 52"-plasma TV.

Let them cash in on their Big-Screen TV.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Children of such wastrel Parents are exactly the ones who are Enstupidating and Impregnating the rest of the Class!! Let them sit and watch their nice 52"-plasma TV; it's better than them being in school, and damaging other children.

Marie Antionette said, "let them eat cake";
I say, Let them watch TV.

You think things are bad now; just wait till you see a permanent underclass created because of this libertarian pipe-dream.

We have a Permanent Underclass NOW, Paduan; created by Government Welfare.

Captain Spock: "Jim... they're dying."
Captain James T. Kirk: "Let them die!"

That works when Mr. and Mrs. Patton, and Mr. and Mrs. MacArthur value education. But, come over to the District Attorney's Office where I interned last summer. Look at how many kids are stuck in the cycle of dependancy because their parents don't value education and self-reliance. Do you really think home-schooling and private-schooling will work with parents who don't give a damn?

NO. IT WON'T WORK. But unless you believe in the Messianic State, the All-Powerful God of Government who can "Make it All Better" and "Tuck you in at Night", the objective is NOT to "Save Everyone".

The Objective -- the only Objective worth pursuing -- is to Do Justice, according to the Bible. Stop Stealing from the Productive, and Trust in God's Natural Law.

The Objective is to Return Tax Dollars to the Parents who DO CARE, instead of attempting Equalization with Parents who DON'T CARE.

---

Repeat after me, Jude:

• "I AM NOT GOD."
• "I DO NOT have the Ability to MAKE Parents care for their Children."
• "AND, since a Parent's Contribution is the most important facet of a Child's Education, the BEST thing I can do is return Tax Dollars to Parents who DO care."

Best, OP