Waco, The rules of engagement.

waco93 ^

[jazusamo]

"It’s good to discuss something controversial, have some areas where we remain at odds, and not have the discussion degenerate into a bash fest. Thanks for an enjoyable discussion."

I thank you as well. I'm new to FR and was a little surprised at some of the bash fests that you mentioned, fortunately they are not prevalent.

[jazusamo]

I am a retired firefighter. Structure fires are dangerous from a standpoint of toxic gases given off by the burning of many substances, plastics and insecticides are two of the worst. Garage fires are particularly bad from possible insecticides being stored.

There are many different types of plastics and they all give off dangerous gases of some sort when burning, many emit cyanide gases. You won't find a structure anywhere that doesn't have plastics in it.

[tertiary01]

We'll never know because the site was bulldozed before it even could cool off.

[SUSSA]

Thanks for the info. So even if CS doesn't give off cyanide, just setting fire to the church probably would have?

[jazusamo]

That's correct. There will be cyanide gas in most any structure fire because of the plastics. But asphyxiation or carbon monoxide will kill you before inhaling enough cyanide gas to cause death. In the davidian compound there had to be cyanide gases.

[SUSSA]

Thanks very much. That helps me a lot. BTW, thanks for your service to the community. Firefighters are very special in my book and never get the thanks they deserve.

[combat_boots]

"There were no flammable gases pumped into the compound."

Something was flammable enough for the thing to go up in flames.

[jazusamo]

It was reported in many accounts after the event that he and his cronies had many containers of gasoline to burn the place should they be attacked. I believe gas was the accelerant.

[lastchance]

Is it possible that many of the toxins found in the blood of the deceased could have been from the chemical breakdown of such things as building materials and interior furnishings?

[lastchance]

You might find that information on the NFPA website.

[jazusamo]

Absolutely. Most anything that burns gives off toxic vapors of some kind. I think Hydrogen is the cleanest burning element, it just gives of water vapor if I'm not mistaken.

[lastchance]

I did a very quick look up on NFPA. A Report on Proposal that dealt with smoke containment systems expressed concern over the exposure of fire fighters to hydrogen cyanide in building fires.
I do know that formaldahyde (sp) is released in household fires- mainly from wall paneling and carpeting.

[dljordan]

"Bubba and Janet don't come off smelling real good and neither does the ATF."

And they all got away clean. Disgusting!

[lastchance]

From CDC website is an online guide to hazardous chemicals.

This is on CS gas http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0378.html

[jazusamo]

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/cyanide/basics/facts.asp


Above is link to basic cyanide and cyanide gas info. It mentions the release of hydrogen cyanide gas from plastics.

[lastchance]

Thanks. I once attended an NFPA life safety seminar where a video was shown of how fast household fires start. That was scary enough, even scarier is that fact that most people would be very quickly overcome by CO and toxic fumes released by the fire.
I am sure fire fighters thank God everday for SCBA.

[MarkL]

Funny, at the time Reno was new in her station and I was willing to cut her some slack, but later she made it clear that she was no better than her boss and his cabal.

I seem to recall hearing that it was actually Hitlery and Webb Hubble that made the call, and Reno was so new in the position of AG, that she really didn't know what was going on... But it's been a very long time, and I could be wrong about it.

Mark

[MarkL]

One of the things that bothered me was the speed with which the "compound" was bulldozed, and I remember seeing photos and reading reports about how the site was considered to be a hazardous area.

Mark

[Nova]

"Bubba and Janet don't come off smelling real good and neither does the ATF."

Let's see...What are the charges that Saddam is on trial for? Something about the murder of citizens with gas, etc.??

[NCLaw441]

Good post. I have not really looked into this very much at all. When it happened (very early in the Clinton presidency) it was one of the few decisions I agreed with him and Reno about. My take was simple, and maybe simplistic: David Koresh could have avoided every bit of this by giving up when the arrest warrant was served. The matter should have been fought in court. Koresh could never have won, and willingly endangered the others at the compound.

I can't speak definitively about what the government did in Waco. I can't believe that law enforcement would willingly do all of what they are accused of. Maybe at age 48 I remain naive.