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Silver shines but equities decline (Silver breaks $10/ounce! 22-year high!)
Yahoo/Financial Times ^ | 3-2-06 | Dave Shellock

Posted on 03/02/2006 7:12:11 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed

The prospect of further rises in interest rates in the eurozone unnerved both equity and bond markets on Thursday.

...

The price of silver rose to a fresh 22-year high above $10 an ounce amid expectations that a silver exchange-traded fund would soon receive US regulatory approval.


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: buymygold; goldbuggery; goldgoldgold; goldmineshaft; goldmongering; goldshillery; yukoncornelius
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To: antaresequity

During the 79-80 spike, I was a kid reading Boy's Life magazine. They were selling gold and silver coins in the classifieds. I just naturally assumed that you should always be able to buy coins out of the back of Average Publication. A 17-year bull cycle should eclipse the numbers posted back then.


21 posted on 03/02/2006 8:10:57 PM PST by TEEHEE
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To: ndt
"that have no possibility of growth, an ounce of silver will always be an ounce of silver."

Yes, exactly. OTOH, an unbacked fiat currency Federal Reserve Note dollar may not be worth a Continental in the future. That is, if it follows every other unbacked fiat currency in the history of mankind.

But an ounce of silver will still be an ounce of silver.

22 posted on 03/02/2006 8:11:45 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Beelzebubba
This chart shows "the other precious metal," but it still contains a sharp lesson for those who are not blind.


23 posted on 03/02/2006 8:14:18 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: antaresequity
"A stock can go to zero...silver, gold or any commodity for that matter will ALWAYS have value... "

True, but anyone who would put all of their money into one or a few companies (or even countries IMO) is gambling, not investing. I have stock in 100's of companies (via ETFs Mutual Funds and ADRs), my largest single holding makes up only .78% of all my assets.

So basically unless the world fails, it's not going to go to 0 and if the world does fail, I would have been better invested in ammunition.
24 posted on 03/02/2006 8:18:43 PM PST by ndt
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To: Travis McGee

It's really handy and convenient to know you can instantly tune out and ignore anything said or written by anyone on finance as soon as you see the word "fiat."


25 posted on 03/02/2006 8:36:54 PM PST by Strategerist
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To: Strategerist; Ancesthntr; archy; Badray; B4Ranch; Blood of Tyrants; CodeToad; coloradan; ...
"It's really handy and convenient to know you can instantly tune out and ignore anything said or written by anyone on finance as soon as you see the word "fiat.""---Strategerist

Excerpt from the speech by Governor Ben S. Bernanke Before the National Economists Club,November 21, 2002 (The famous "helicopter money" speech)

Curing Deflation

Let me start with some general observations about monetary policy at the zero bound, sweeping under the rug for the moment some technical and operational issues.

As I have mentioned, some observers have concluded that when the central bank's policy rate falls to zero--its practical minimum--monetary policy loses its ability to further stimulate aggregate demand and the economy. At a broad conceptual level, and in my view in practice as well, this conclusion is clearly mistaken. Indeed, under a fiat (that is, paper) money system, a government (in practice, the central bank in cooperation with other agencies) should always be able to generate increased nominal spending and inflation, even when the short-term nominal interest rate is at zero.

The conclusion that deflation is always reversible under a fiat money system follows from basic economic reasoning. A little parable may prove useful: Today an ounce of gold sells for $300, more or less. Now suppose that a modern alchemist solves his subject's oldest problem by finding a way to produce unlimited amounts of new gold at essentially no cost. Moreover, his invention is widely publicized and scientifically verified, and he announces his intention to begin massive production of gold within days. What would happen to the price of gold? Presumably, the potentially unlimited supply of cheap gold would cause the market price of gold to plummet. Indeed, if the market for gold is to any degree efficient, the price of gold would collapse immediately after the announcement of the invention, before the alchemist had produced and marketed a single ounce of yellow metal.

26 posted on 03/02/2006 8:54:11 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Strategerist

I had a Fiat once. I know what you mean.


27 posted on 03/02/2006 8:55:02 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: Strategerist
It's really handy and convenient to know you can instantly tune out and ignore anything said or written by anyone on finance as soon as you see the word "fiat." --Strategerist

About Economics

The Gold Standard vs. Fiat Money

[Q:] I saw the term "Gold Standard" mentioned in one of my textbooks. What was the gold standard and how does it differ from today's system of money.

[A:] Excellent question! First we'll have a quick history lesson, then we'll see how it works and how it differs from fiat money.

Definition of the Gold Standard

My normally extensive Economics Glossary does not have an entry on the gold standard, so we'll have to look elsewhere for a definition. An extensive essay on the gold standard on The Encyclopedia of Economics and Liberty defines the gold standard as "a commitment by participating countries to fix the prices of their domestic currencies in terms of a specified amount of gold.

National money and other forms of money (bank deposits and notes) were freely converted into gold at the fixed price." A county under the gold standard would set a price for gold, say $100 an ounce and would buy and sell gold at that price. This effectively sets a value for the currency; in our fictional example $1 would be worth 1/100th of an ounce of gold. Other precious metals could be used to set a monetary standard; silver standards were common in the 1800's. A combination of the gold and silver standard is known as bimetallism.

A Very Brief History of the Gold Standard

If you would like to learn about the history of money in detail, there is an excellent site called A Comparative Chronology of Money which details the important places and dates in monetary history. During most of the 1800s the United States was had a bimetallic system of money, however it was essentially on a gold standard as very little silver was traded. A true gold standard came to fruition in 1900 with the passage of the Gold Standard Act. The gold standard effectively came to an end in 1933 when President Franklin D. Roosevelt outlawed private gold ownership (except for the purposes of jewelery). The Bretton Woods System, enacted in 1946 created a system of fixed exchange rates that allowed governments to sell their gold to the United States treasury at the price of $35/ounce. "The Bretton Woods system ended on August 15, 1971, when President Richard Nixon ended trading of gold at the fixed price of $35/ounce. At that point for the first time in history, formal links between the major world currencies and real commodities were severed". The gold standard has not been used in any major economy since that time.

What Do We Use Today?

Almost every country, including the United States, is on a system of fiat money, which the glossary defines as "money that is intrinsically useless; is used only as a medium of exchange". We saw in the article "Why Does Money Have Value" that the value of money is set by the supply and demand for money and the supply and demand for other goods and services in the economy. The prices for those goods and services, including gold and silver, are allowed to fluctuate based on market forces. Next we'll look at how the monetary system used can change other variables in the economy.

28 posted on 03/02/2006 9:07:05 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: varmintxer
The charts you are looking at are spot prices...the only time you pay spot is when you take delivery of a contract for purchase of silver...otherwise the broker-dealers take a cut either coming or going...

When it comes to contracts...

Right now as I type this the overnight April Nymex Silver Contracts are trading at 10.20...while the spot market is quoting 10.14 in Hong Kong and via the New York Access Market...

The contracts are the rights to purchase 5000 oz of silver...so in effect you would be paying a premium of .06 an ounce or 300 bucks for the lot...

It is for this very reason that broker dealers who often take physical delivery to sell to the retail market charge a premium over the spot at point of sale...and it usually is quite a bit more than just the contract premium...

For instance...right now at Kitco a 1000 oz bar of silver is listed at 10,300 bucks...as you can see its 5 times the contract premium for April Silver...March is a bit less...

If you want to buy silver or gold and pay the cheapest possible price, you would buy a contract and then take delivery of the certificate...and then either leave the stock at Nymex...or make delivery and transportation arrangements and take physical delivery...

Silver contracts are highly leveraged. It requires 1650 bucks to hold a contract...which you get back at the end. In the mean time you control 5000 oz of silver.

For each penny of price change...your account either goes up or down 50 bucks.

If you bought say April Silver at 10.00 and silver went to 12.00 by contract expiration...your account would accrue at 2.00 x 5000 or 10 grand.

That would be a 600% increase in your capital outlay. Of course it can go the other way as well. Contract traders require excess capital in their accounts above the contract maintenance margins to account for fluctuations in price.

If you were fortunate enough to buy April contracts as described above and silver ran to 12.00, and you wanted physical delivery...you would need to come up with 5000 x 12.00 or 60 grand.

Of course your trading account is 10 grand richer, so you would need to come up with the balance or 50 grand.

The net effect is that you took a risk, but bought 12 buck silver for 10 bucks...

It is the risk premium that the retail broker dealers are charging for when you as a retail consumer pay more than spot for physical.

That may explain why what you see in a gold chart doesn't jive with what you may have paid for your Silver Maple Leafs..


I hope that made sense...


29 posted on 03/02/2006 9:07:36 PM PST by antaresequity (PUSH 1 FOR ENGLISH, PUSH 2 TO BE DEPORTED)
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To: Strategerist
"It's really handy and convenient to know you can instantly tune out and ignore anything said or written by anyone on finance as soon as you see the word "fiat." ---Strategerist

Heading for a fall, by fiat?

Heading for a fall, by fiat? Feb 26th 2004 (The Economist)

Feb 26th 2004 From The Economist print edition

The trouble with paper money

IS THE problem with the dollar only that it is falling? It has certainly been doing that. This month, it fell to $1.29 against the euro. This is its lowest-ever rate against the euro, and represents a decline of 19% since the beginning of 2003. In trade-weighted terms, the dollar has fallen less over the same period (15%), but mainly because Asian central banks have been intervening heavily to stem their currencies' rise against it. Of late, it has been wobbling around unconvincingly: America needs a weaker dollar to correct its current-account deficit. But given the dollar's role as a currency of last resort, some wonder if its decline heralds not just an economic adjustment by the United States, but a crisis of sorts in the value of paper money itself.

Money in its present form is a relatively new invention. For most of human history money meant either gold or silver, either directly, or indirectly by means of the “gold standard” which meant, at least in theory, that all paper money was backed by gold. Enthusiasm for the gold standard evaporated in the 1930s, when it made dreadful conditions worse. But it was adopted in a watered-down version after the second world war, when only the dollar was backed by gold. This arrangement made some sense, since America held three-quarters of the world's gold stock. But it came to an end in 1971, when inflationary pressures in America caused the country's manufacturers to become uncompetitive and forced the country off the gold standard. Since then the world has relied on “fiat money”, so-called because it is created by government fiat and is backed only by the promises of central bankers to protect the value of their currencies. It is the value of those promises that some are now questioning.

(Continues at link.)

30 posted on 03/02/2006 9:21:24 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Strategerist
It's really handy and convenient to know you can instantly tune out and ignore anything said or written by anyone on finance as soon as you see the word "fiat." --Strategerist

Encyclopedia Britannica Online

Gradually, governments assumed a supervisory role. They specified legal tender, defining the type of payment that legally discharged a debt when offered to the creditor and that could be used to pay taxes. Governments also set the weight and metallic composition of coins. Later they replaced fiduciary paper money—promises to pay in gold or silver—with fiat paper money—that is, notes that are issued on the “fiat” of the sovereign government, are specified to be so many dollars, pounds, or yen, etc., and are legal tender but are not promises to pay something else.

31 posted on 03/02/2006 9:29:11 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Strategerist
It's really handy and convenient to know you can instantly tune out and ignore anything said or written by anyone on finance as soon as you see the word "fiat."

So far, you are on record as "tuning out and ignoring" anything said by Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke, or written in About Economics, The Encyclopedia Britannica, and The Economist.

In a few more minutes, I could pile up a dozen more references to fiat money, but I think the point is made.

No comment? No retraction?

32 posted on 03/02/2006 9:33:40 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Travis McGee
Helicopter Ben doesn't seem to have studied much science. Gold is an element. Elements can not be changed or made from other elements without breaking atomic bonds: that is nuclear reactors are required, or atom smashers. Nuclear reactors do turn Uranium into Plutonium, but don't work with Gold for a variety of reasons. Atom smashers usually use elements at the other end of the table and work on infinitely small amounts of those elements and require vast amounts of energy.

It is much more plausible that oil will be created (oil is a molecule, not an element and so could theoretically be made by other methods).

Even nano-tech theorists do not suggest nanotechnology will be able to convert one element to another.

Asteroids are the more likely source of lots of "new" gold, not alchemy.

33 posted on 03/02/2006 9:38:57 PM PST by Jack Black
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To: joanie-f; papertyger; Sic Luceat Lux; B4Ranch

Read from 22 on for a laugh.


34 posted on 03/02/2006 9:39:28 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Jack Black

I only grabbed that part of the Helicopter Speech because that was when Ben made a few mentions of fiat money. But it does show how his mind works (or not.)


35 posted on 03/02/2006 9:40:49 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
I think Silver is better than a Fiat any day. Image hosting by Photobucket
36 posted on 03/02/2006 9:43:53 PM PST by Always Learning
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To: Jack Black

I will definitely be shorting gold when...


37 posted on 03/02/2006 9:56:10 PM PST by antaresequity (PUSH 1 FOR ENGLISH, PUSH 2 TO BE DEPORTED)
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To: Travis McGee
It's time for you to stop attempting to reason with strategerist. May I suggest, instead, the following time honored method of 'teaching' those who refuse to listen to reason?


38 posted on 03/02/2006 10:04:42 PM PST by joanie-f (If you believe God is your co-pilot, it might be time to switch seats ...)
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To: antaresequity

Thank you all! I bought some silver in 1999, but I couldn't remember how much I'd paid for it. I'll file this for future reference.


39 posted on 03/02/2006 10:21:49 PM PST by redhead (Alaska: Step out of the bus and into the food chain...)
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To: Travis McGee
I"ve always like silver bullion. I've been buying it for years. When one ounce rounds were selling for 5.00 a piece it was a real bargain.

I don't ever intend to do anything with it, I just like having it around.

Prospectors are my favorite. You never pay much of a premium on those.

L

40 posted on 03/02/2006 10:39:17 PM PST by Lurker (In God I trust. Everybody else shows me their hands.)
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