[The Fop]

I happen to think that there are many people who are born gay. Let's call them "authentically gay". I also happen to think that the line in the Bible that says "a man shall not lie with another man" is addressed to heterosexuals, and G-d is saying "it's okay for THEM to do that, but don't YOU go mimicking their behavior.

There are lots of examples of people who aren't authentically gay finding themselves in situations where they engage in gay sex, such as criminals in prisons, men who were sexually abused by pedophiles during their youth which screwed up their heads, and art school students who think that it's a rite of passage to have a gay fling. All of these examples fall under the heading of sexually deviant behavior along the lines of what took place in Ancient Rome.

I'm against gay marriage not because I want to deny authentically gay people the right to legitimize their relationships. I'm against gay marriage because laws are written in very general terms. So if gay marriage is legalized, the law won't make any reference to being gay or straight. So we'll just have a situation where our government makes no distinction between homosexuality and heterosexuality, in terms of one being considered normal and the other abnormal.

So our government will basically be telling people "don't assume that a hetero marriage is right for you and that a homo marriage is wrong for you, so keep your mind open to going either way". Such a society is inviting people who aren't authentically gay to engage in "sexual experimentation", which is another term for sexually deviant behavior.

[El Cid]

I happen to think that there are many people who are born gay.

I agree that we are all born 'diseased' in one degree or another. This began when Adam and Eve fell in the Garden and the sting of sin is passed onto all of their descendants (all of mankind). Some have a predilection towards homosexuality, others towards alcoholism, others towards drug abuse, child abuse, adultery, rape, etc... The fact that these tendencies exist do not make them right. They are to be overcome, and they can be overcome through Christ Jesus. We aren't doing anyone good by telling them that their slide into depravity is 'ok' - no matter what their disease. We don't tell the heroin addict that it is 'ok' to shoot up, we don't tell the child molester that his actions are 'ok', and we don't do any favor to the homosexual by telling him that his actions are 'ok'.
Love them - yes; but lie to them - no.

[NYer]

I also happen to think that the line in the Bible that says "a man shall not lie with another man" is addressed to heterosexuals, and G-d is saying "it's okay for THEM to do that, but don't YOU go mimicking their behavior.

And what is the scriptural basis for your belief? Can you cite it?

[Lucky Dog]

I happen to think that there are many people who are born gay.

Let's call them "authentically gay".

Let’s not, since there is no documented proof of any such thing.

All of these examples fall under the heading of sexually deviant behavior…

All examples of homosexual behavior are sexually deviant behavior.

Heterosexually oriented adults exist who choose for religious and other reasons to be celibate. From this observation, obviously, adults have the power to choose to be celibate. Therefore, sexual orientation is irrelevant to the choice to engage in sexual activity whether it is heterosexual or homosexual. In other words, regardless of whether or not someone is “BORN homosexual” (a point which I do not grant), their voluntary choices

Homosexual behavior provides no benefits to, nor serves any useful purposes to, society that are not available through other sources at lower societal costs and greater side benefits. Additionally, homosexual behavior is detrimental in a number of ways to society as well as individual practitioners.

1) Utilitarian Assertion: Homosexual behavior serves no useful/productive purpose [to society] and causes significant detriments [both to society and individuals].

2) Resource Inefficient Use/Misapplication Assertion: Homosexual behavior results in significant misuse of societal resources:

a. Increases completely avoidable, deadly disease rates (HIV/AIDS) among its practitioners with attendant increases in premature death rates.
b. Increases other, completely avoidable, potentially less deadly diseases (STD’s) among its practitioners and potentially others (unavoidably).
c. Inordinately diverts resources to the care of completely avoidable diseases (especially in acute stages).
d. Inordinately diverts (in proportion to the percentage of those affected to the overall general population) limited resources into medical research for prevention/cure of these completely avoidable diseases.

3) Societal Degradation Assertion: Homosexual behaviors and open advocacy for their acceptance result in significant detriments to society at large.

a. In ordinate numbers (in proportion to percentage to the total population of perpetrators) of pedophiles are homosexual practitioners.
b. Increasing acceptance of homosexual behavior, in general, will result in increased numbers of homosexual practitioners and resultant increases in cases of pedophilia.
c. Increasing acceptance of homosexual behavior, in general, will result in legalization of homosexual marriage which will degrade the institution of marriage and its benefits to society.
d. Increasing acceptance of homosexual behavior, in general, will result in increased acceptance of child adoption by these practitioners and cause increased societal costs for dealing with children harmed psychologically (and otherwise) by this practice.
e. Increasing acceptance of homosexual behavior, in general, will result in increased acceptance of bigamy, polygamy, incestuous unions, prostitution, bestiality, etc., which will inordinately and adversely affect the family in general and children (future citizens) in particular.
f. Homosexual behavior (by the overwhelming majority of its practitioners) focuses on individual pleasure/self-indulgence to the exclusion of any regard for negative impacts on others (hedonism) and causes a resultant decline in antithetical (to hedonism) virtues beneficial to society such as service to others, self-sacrifice, self-discipline, devotion to duty, etc.
g. Society unnecessarily loses potentially valuable contributions from homosexual practitioners who die prematurely due to avoidable diseases resulting from this behavior.

4) Biological/Psychological Assertion: Homosexual behavior is contrary to the natural function of sex and normal human social behavior

a. Procreation is impossible to exclusively homosexual behavior practitioners.
b. If homosexuality were a genetic anomaly, it would appear in the population at much lower incidence than is observed.
c. Homosexual behaviors observed (Skinner, et al) in non-human animals are neurotic, abnormal singularities and require artificial, forced conditions (e.g., overcrowding) and is not seen in the normal habitat and behavior of these animals.
d. Homosexual behavior is a conscious choice by its practitioners… homosexual “orientation”(if it exists) no more requires an individual to participate in homosexual behavior than heterosexual “orientation” requires an individual to participate in rape, bigamy, prostitution or any other sexual activity.

5) Theological Assertion: No major religion approves of homosexual behavior and most discourage and/or prohibit or condemn it.

a. Homosexual behavior is explicitly condemned multiple times in the Judeo-Christian scriptures (both Old and New Testaments).
b. Homosexual behavior is explicitly condemned in the Islamic foundational documents.
c. Tenants of Buddhism strongly discourage homosexual behavior.
d. Hindu documents discourage homosexual behavior.
e. Homosexual “orientation” is not a problem absent homosexual behavior.

I also happen to think that the line in the Bible that says "a man shall not lie with another man" is addressed to heterosexuals, and G-d is saying "it's okay for THEM to do that, but don't YOU go mimicking their behavior.

You are reading something into the text that is clearly not there. Your opinion is ill informed.

Opponents of biblical inerrancy within must address themselves to an essential question: If Scripture cannot be trusted as the infallible and inerrant Word of God, what then is our source of knowledge, of truth? If the Word of God is relegated to the "culturally relative," how do we know anything from Scripture? How do we know anything?

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:9-10).

Consider the list of sinners mentioned in 1 Timothy 1:9-10. Notice that homosexuals are grouped together with the following: "the ungodly," "murderers of fathers," "murderers of mothers," "manslayers," "fornicators," "kidnappers," etc. If homosexuality were really a legitimate, alternate life-style in God's sight, then we would not expect homosexuals to be listed together with the worst kind of sinners imaginable.

"Wherefore GOD also GAVE THEM UP to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause GOD GAVE THEM UP unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet" (Romans 1:24-27).

In the above passage, notice the words and phrases which are used to describe the sin of homosexuality:

It is UNCLEAN, filthy, morally foul, morally polluted.

It DISHONORS THE BODY, it is degrading.

It involves VILE AFFECTIONS (dishonorable, degrading and disgraceful passions).

It is AGAINST NATURE, contrary to the original intention of the Creator.

It is UNNATURAL ("leaving the natural use"), contrary to God-ordained sex relations.

It involves BURNING LUST, being sexually inflamed, boiling with unnatural lust.

It is UNSEEMLY, shameful.

It is ERROR.

The Penalty for Homosexuality under the Mosaic Law (Leviticus 20:13).

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13).

The term "mankind" is the Hebrew term for "male." If a man lies with a male as one lies with a female, both of them have committed an abomination. This repeats the teaching of Leviticus 18:22, only now the penalty is given: "they shall surely be put to death." If you were living in the days of Moses, under the law of God, homosexuality was punishable by DEATH. "What about 'Gay Rights'?" The teaching of God was that it was RIGHT to put those who practiced such things to death. The death penalty was demanded. The Hebrew construction "they shall surely be put to death" is very similar to that found in Genesis 2:17-- "...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou [Adam] shalt surely die." Under the Mosaic law, those caught in the act of homosexuality would surely, most certainly be put to death.

The expression "their blood shall be upon them" is highly significant. A similar phrase is found in Matthew 27:25-- "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." What did these words mean? The Jews who demanded Christ's death by crucifixion were saying this: "We take full responsibility for Christ's death. Pilate, His death and His blood will not be upon you, but upon us. We assume full responsibility for this death."

In Leviticus 20:13 God tells us that those men who engaged in a homosexual act were fully responsible for this deed and had to bear the consequences of it, namely, the death penalty. These men were fully responsible for this sin that they committed. Homosexuality is not some inborn, innate tendency over which a man has no control. Rather it is something that a man chooses to do, and God holds him fully responsible for that action. A man can never legitimately say, "I could not help it. I was born this way. I have no control over my sexual conduct. I am not responsible for my actions and I should not be punished for something that I could not help. I cannot change what and who I am." No, this man was fully responsible for his own death ("[his] blood shall be upon [him]") because he chose to commit a crime worthy of death.

[scripter]

I happen to think that there are many people who are born gay.

Why do you think that? What do you think about Queer By Choice?

I also happen to think that the line in the Bible that says "a man shall not lie with another man" is addressed to heterosexuals

Why do you think that? What is your biblical justification?

[Antoninus]

I happen to think that there are many people who are born gay. Let's call them "authentically gay". I also happen to think that the line in the Bible that says "a man shall not lie with another man" is addressed to heterosexuals, and G-d is saying "it's okay for THEM to do that, but don't YOU go mimicking their behavior.

Ok, you and that nutty Rabbi who was on Michael Medved's show. That makes two of you who think that.

No one is genetically programmed to jam their sausage into another man's poop-chute. And if you think God approves of such behavior, you're simply insane.

[SaltyJoe]

The following is a sarcastic statement to expose a broken logic: '"Thou shalt not kill" only applies to non-sociopathic, non-psychotic normal people. Those of selective memory and unrestrained rage are completely free from the 5th Commandment.'

The Fop states, "I happen to think that there are many people who are born gay."

El Cid said, "I agree that we are all born 'diseased' in one degree or another."

Being conceived with original sin, we mortals are all susceptible to sin. Some are more inclined to offend God than others.

Homosexuality is an offense to God's creation because the plumbing of the abomination refuses fruitful copulation. In fact, the very act is violent mutilation of the intended purpose for our procreative bodies.

The logic of stating that the Bible only addresses '"a man shall not lie with another" is only for heterosexuals,' is the same as giving a pass to violence prone individuals. Perhaps this is why so much of the real world abuse, crime, and especially murder come from a homosexual population. Less than 2% is responsible for 50% of the violence. Even if homosexuality can claim up to 10% of a population (perhaps in a concentrated city), the sexually perverted are still responsible for a huge portion of violent crime.

Selective obedience is still a revolt in which whose defenders decay into revolting perversions and self-destruction.

There is Hope and Joy for those of us who are that much more separated from the flock. By their very conception of their fallen position from Grace (i.e. born into a violent family, drug abuse, etc.), these souls have much more to know of Jesus' yearning for them and MUCH higher reward awaiting them should they turn to Christ. Our Heavenly Father is not so concerned for the Sunday choir that never misses a note of Weekly or even Daily Celebration. God desires the worst sinners much MUCH more than the Daily Communicant. And when the Grave Robber returns with a once lost sheep, He pours that MUCH more GRACE onto the returned soul! He kills the fatted calf in the victory feast of having spoiled hell's want for spreading misery and suffering.

The soul, the once lost lamb that was once so firmly ensnared in the grip of evil's deadly jaws, becomes Heaven's victory. Seated at the banquet given for his once lost honor, the forgiven sinner is returned to full Redemption. All of stains of his sins, no matter how horrible, are ALL FORGOTTEN!

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm51.htm

Psalm 51

7
True, I was born guilty, a sinner, even as my mother conceived me.
8
Still, you insist on sincerity of heart; in my inmost being teach me wisdom.
9
Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure; wash me, make me whiter than snow.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/luke/luke15.htm

Luke
Chapter 15

1 The tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to listen to him,
2
but the Pharisees and scribes began to complain, saying, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."
3
So to them he addressed this parable.
4
"What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them would not leave the ninety-nine in the desert and go after the lost one until he finds it?
5
And when he does find it, he sets it on his shoulders with great joy
6
and, upon his arrival home, he calls together his friends and neighbors and says to them, 'Rejoice with me because I have found my lost sheep.'
7
I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.
8
"Or what woman having ten coins 2 and losing one would not light a lamp and sweep the house, searching carefully until she finds it?
9
And when she does find it, she calls together her friends and neighbors and says to them, 'Rejoice with me because I have found the coin that I lost.'
10
In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
11
Then he said, "A man had two sons,
12
and the younger son said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of your estate that should come to me.' So the father divided the property between them.
13
After a few days, the younger son collected all his belongings and set off to a distant country where he squandered his inheritance on a life of dissipation.
14
When he had freely spent everything, a severe famine struck that country, and he found himself in dire need.
15
So he hired himself out to one of the local citizens who sent him to his farm to tend the swine.
16
And he longed to eat his fill of the pods on which the swine fed, but nobody gave him any.
17
Coming to his senses he thought, 'How many of my father's hired workers have more than enough food to eat, but here am I, dying from hunger.
18
I shall get up and go to my father and I shall say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19
I no longer deserve to be called your son; treat me as you would treat one of your hired workers."'
20
So he got up and went back to his father. While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him, and was filled with compassion. He ran to his son, embraced him and kissed him.
21
His son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son.'
22
But his father ordered his servants, 'Quickly bring the finest robe and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.
23
Take the fattened calf and slaughter it. Then let us celebrate with a feast,
24
because this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.' Then the celebration began.
25
Now the older son had been out in the field and, on his way back, as he neared the house, he heard the sound of music and dancing.
26
He called one of the servants and asked what this might mean.
27
The servant said to him, 'Your brother has returned and your father has slaughtered the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'
28
He became angry, and when he refused to enter the house, his father came out and pleaded with him.
29
He said to his father in reply, 'Look, all these years I served you and not once did I disobey your orders; yet you never gave me even a young goat to feast on with my friends.
30
But when your son returns who swallowed up your property with prostitutes, for him you slaughter the fattened calf.'
31
He said to him, 'My son, you are here with me always; everything I have is yours.
32
But now we must celebrate and rejoice, because your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.'"