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To: Ichneumon
Evolutionary biology, and Darwin's writings about it, deal entirely with how life changes once it's here, not how it started or where it came from.

That simply doesn't matter. They both attempt to explain the complexity of life, either it's origins, or its variations, with a mechanism that has no possibility of producing those results.

And that mechanism is the same. Chance events, and long periods of time, combine (with the help of another inadequate factor in the case of evolution...selection) to produce the most complex, intricate, and purposeful structures known.

39 posted on 02/16/2006 8:15:18 PM PST by GSHastings
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To: GSHastings
[Evolutionary biology, and Darwin's writings about it, deal entirely with how life changes once it's here, not how it started or where it came from.]

That simply doesn't matter.

It does when people mistakenly try to imply, or often outright claim, that evolutionary biology is somehow dependent upon, or inextricably linked to, the validity of various origin-of-life hypotheses.

They both attempt to explain the complexity of life,

No, they most certainly do not. Biogenesis does not attempt to explain the complexity of life. It attempts to explain the origin of replication, period, no matter how simple. Please try to learn something about a topic before you attempt to expound upon it.

either it's origins, or its variations, with a mechanism that has no possibility of producing those results.

Why, because you say so? Because you're unfamiliar with how evolutionary processes produce complexity and functionality?

And that mechanism is the same.

Wrong again. Evolutionary biology deals with evolutionary processes, which involve replication as a necessary ingredient. Biogenesis is pre-replication, and must obviously occur by different mechanisms. Again, please try to learn a subject before you start trying to "lecture" on it.

Chance events, and long periods of time, combine (with the help of another inadequate factor in the case of evolution...selection) to produce the most complex, intricate, and purposeful structures known.

Congratulations, you've left out some of the other necessary conditions for evolutionary processes to occur -- your description is a fallacious analogy, and utterly fails to examine, critique, analyze, or refute the actual properties of those processes. Your post is just a classic "appeal to ignorance" fallacy -- these fallacies have the general form, "because *I* can't conceive how X could take place, then it can't happen!"

Here, start your neglected education then get back to us:


29 Evidences for Macroevolution PDF image
This article directly addresses the scientific evidences in favor of macroevolutionary theory and common descent. It is specifically intended for those who are scientifically minded but, for one reason or another, have come to believe that macroevolutionary theory explains little, makes few or no testable predictions, or cannot be falsified.

Evolution and Philosophy: An Introduction
Critics of evolutionary theory very often misunderstand the philosophical issues of the speciality known as the philosophy of science. This essay seeks to summarise some of the more important recent developments, provide a reading list, and to show that evolution is no worse off philosophically than any other science would be, and that the usual arguments against evolution from a philosophical approach fail.


Transitional Vertebrate Fossils
It is impossible to to debate creationists without hearing them claim that there are no transitional forms in the fossil record. This essay puts the lie to that claim by listing and briefly describing a large number of transitional fossils among the vertebrates.


Genetic Algorithms and Evolutionary Computation
Creationists often argue that evolutionary processes cannot create new information, or that evolution has no practical benefits. This article disproves those claims by describing the explosive growth and widespread applications of genetic algorithms, a computing technique based on principles of biological evolution.

Introduction to Evolutionary Biology
This essay is a must-read for anyone who wants to participate in talk.origins. It lays out the land for evolutionists and creationists alike, presenting the ideas behind and the evidence for biological evolution.

What is Evolution?
All too often creationists spend their time arguing with a straw-man caricature of evolution. This brief essay presents a definition of evolution that is acceptable to evolutionists.

Evolution is a Fact and a Theory
Biologists consider evolution to be a fact in much the same way that physicists do so for gravity. However, the mechanisms of evolution are less well understood, and it is these mechanisms that are described by several theories of evolution.

Genetic Algorithms

The Origins of Order: Self Organization and Selection in Evolution. By Stuart Kauffman, S. A. (1993) Oxford University Press, NY, ISBN: 0195079515.

Compositional genomes: Prebiotic information transfer in mutually catalytic noncovalent assemblies

Eigen M, and Schuster P, The hypercycle. A principle of natural self-organization. Springer-Verlag, isbn 3-540-09293, 1979

The origin of genetic information: viruses as models

Compositional genomes: prebiotic information transfer in mutually catalytic noncovalent assemblies

Stadler PF, Dynamics of autocatalytic reaction networks. IV: Inhomogeneous replicator networks. Biosystems, 26: 1-19, 1991

Lee DH, Severin K, and Ghadri MR. Autocatalytic networks: the transition from molecular self-replication to molecular ecosystems. Curr Opinion Chem Biol, 1, 491-496, 1997

Lee DH, Severin K, Yokobayashi Y, and Ghadiri MR, Emergence of symbiosis in peptide self-replication through a hypercyclic network. Nature, 390: 591-4, 1997

Apolipoprotein AI Mutations and Information

Creationist Claim CB102: Mutations are random noise; they do not add information.

Multiple Duplications of Yeast Hexose Transport Genes in Response to Selection in a Glucose-Limited Environment

Evolution of biological information

Evolution of biological complexity

Evolution and Information: The Nylon Bug

Examples of Beneficial Mutations and Natural Selection

The evolution of trichromatic color vision by opsin gene duplication in New World and Old World primates

Gene duplications in evolution of archaeal family B DNA polymerases

Koch, AL: Evolution of antibiotic resistance gene function. Microbiol Rev 1981, 45:355378.

Selection in the evolution of gene duplications

Velkov, VV: Gene amplification in prokaryotic and eukaryotic systems. Genetika 1982, 18:529543.

Romero, D & Palacios, R: Gene amplification and genomic plasticity in prokaryotes. Annu Rev Genet 1997, 31:91111.

Stark, GR & Wahl, GM: Gene amplification. Annu Rev Biochem 1984, 53:447491.

Reinbothe, S, Ortel, B, & Parthier, B: Overproduction by gene amplification of the multifunctional arom protein confers glyphosate tolerance to a plastid-free mutant of Euglena gracilis. Mol Gen Genet 1993, 239:416424.

Gottesman, MM, Hrycyna, CA, Schoenlein, PV, Germann, UA, & Pastan, I: Genetic analysis of the multidrug transporter. Annu Rev Genet 1995, 29:607649.

Schwab, M: Oncogene amplification in solid tumors. Semin Cancer Biol 1999, 9:319325.

Widholm, JM, Chinnala, AR, Ryu, JH, Song, HS, Eggett, T, & Brotherton, JE: Glyphosate selection of gene amplification in suspension cultures of three plant species. Physiol Plant 2001, 112:540545.

Otto, E, Young, JE, & Maroni, G: Structure and expression of a tandem duplication of the Drosophila metallothionein gene. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1986, 83:60256029.

Maroni, G, Wise, J, Young, JE, & Otto, E: Metallothionein gene duplications and metal tolerance in natural populations of Drosophila melanogaster. Genetics 1987, 117:739744.

Kondratyeva, TF, Muntyan, LN, & Karvaiko, GI: Zinc-resistant and arsenic-resistant strains of Thiobacillus ferrooxidans have increased copy numbers of chromosomal resistance genes. Microbiology 1995, 141:11571162.

Tohoyama, H, Shiraishi, E, Amano, S, Inouhe, M, Joho, M, & Murayama, T: Amplification of a gene for metallothionein by tandem repeat in a strain of cadmium-resistant yeast cells. FEMS Microbiol Lett 1996, 136:269273.

Sonti, RV & Roth, JR: Role of gene duplications in the adaptation of Salmonella typhimurium to growth on limiting carbon sources. Genetics 1989, 123:1928.

Brown, CJ, Todd, KM, & Rosenzweig, RF: Multiple duplications of yeast hexose transport genes in response to selection in a glucose-limited environment. Mol Biol Evol 1998, 15:931942.

Hastings, PJ, Bull, HJ, Klump, JR, & Rosenberg, SM: Adaptive amplification: an inducible chromosomal instability mechanism. Cell 2000, 103:723731.

Tabashnik, BE: Implications of gene amplification for evolution and management of insecticide resistance. J Econ Entomol 1990, 83:11701176.

Lenormand, T, Guillemaud, T, Bourguet, D, & Raymond, M: Appearance and sweep of a gene duplication: adaptive response and potential for new functions in the mosquito Culex pipiens. Evolution 1998, 52:17051712.

Guillemaud, T, Raymond, M, Tsagkarakou, A, Bernard, C, Rochard, P, & Pasteur, N: Quantitative variation and selection of esterase gene amplification in Culex pipiens. Heredity 1999, 83:8799.

To cover other anti-evolution talking points you think you might have, check out this list of common creationist claims -- each item is linked to a discussion of the weaknesses of that talking point.

If you still have any unresolved questions or require further explanation of why you're talking nonsense, ask me and I'll cover it in more detail.

44 posted on 02/16/2006 8:38:11 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: GSHastings
And that mechanism is the same. Chance events, and long periods of time

You have zero comprehension of what evolution is. Abiogenesis, by definition, cannot evolve because it cannot reproduce. While evolution totally depends on reproduction and genetic changes. These two things are in no way "the same".

45 posted on 02/16/2006 8:39:52 PM PST by narby (Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
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