Posted on 02/02/2006 7:55:36 AM PST by hispanarepublicana
A San Bernardino County sheriff's deputy who shot a 21-year-old Air Force security officer in an incident captured by a video camera appears to have violated accepted police tactics and may have committed a criminal offense, experts in the use of force by police said Wednesday.
~snip~
San Bernardino County sheriff's officials have refused to release the name of the deputy, although state law makes the identity of law enforcement officers involved in shootings a matter of public record.
A source close to the investigation confirmed the identity of the deputy as Ivory J. Webb IV, 45.
Answering the front door of Webb's home, a woman said the deputy, currently on paid administrative leave, was not willing to discuss the shooting.
~snip~
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
The weight of pressure needed to fire off a shot varies greatly between types of pistols. Some need over ten pounds of pressure and a long pull for the first shot ("double action") and then the following shots only need 4-5 pounds of trigger pressure and a much shorter pull.
If the cop had his finger inside the trigger guard while "covering" the suspect, he has violated every rule, and should hang. The finger should not go inside of the trigger guard until a moment before firing, and only after the decision has been made to shoot.
If the cop had his finger inside of the trigger guard, with a light single action type trigger (4-5 pounds of pressure to fire), and the suspect moves unexpectedly, it's easy to almost "flinch" and fire off the first shot. The next shots are almost a reflex action after the shock of the first "bang" (even though that "bang" was your own.)
This will be a huge part of the trial.
http://www.thatwasrandom.com/content/view/259/48/
Maybe not a Glock, but it's quite likely. He might have pre-cocked a DA first shot pistol, and then under stress he put some weight on the trigger, as if it was still going to require a DA pull.
This used to happen with revolvers a lot. Riots in Miami broke out in the mid 80s when an Hispanic cop had a black kid spread over a pinball machine, prior to cuffing him. The cop cocked his DA revolver, and when the kid allegedly moved: "BANG!" A lot of police depts removed the SA sear from their revolvers after than, making them true "DA only" guns.
Now, with 50 different auto pistols in use, it's a real bag of worms. Cops may be using SA only (1911 type), DA only, DA first shot followed by SA follow ups, Glock "safe action" which is close to SA, and so on.
If cops are transitioning from one type of pistol to another with a different trigger type, you can have real problems. When that "muscle memory" kicks in, and under great stress your reptile brain think it's going to take 12 pounds to make that BANG and it takes only 4......
This is not "thought out," that's the point. It happens on an almost unconscious level. This is why much training and uniform policies are super important.
I never said it was a Glock. It could have been a case of a heavy DA first shot, followed by much lighter SA follow up shots going off almost in a chain reaction. Under great stress, that first "BANG!" can cause more shots, even if the first shot was your own. It's psychological, not a malfuntion of the gun. The gun just does what it's supposed to do.
It will be interesting to know what type of pistol it was, if it was cocked, if his finger was inside the guard, etc.
In my civilian peace officer days we were trained to cover at low ready index finger on the slide. That way if a negligent discharge occurred less likely that someone would be killed. Also not at play in this incident but has been an issue in other wild fire shoots by police, not everyone had sidearm out. If you had 2 officers one covered while the other cuffed. I have seen a lot of "circle" shootouts lately with 5 and 6 officers blasting away at one suspect. We also had to qualify every 6 months with what we carried. I will look at the vid again and try to go frame by frame to see what type of pistol it is but CA agencies seem to love glock and a lot of those departments are set up to where you carry what your are issiued
KFI's Bill Handel said that the LEO in question may be the son of a former Compton police chief. Let's see how the PC apparatchiks and their minions handle this one..
All th epicture I could find of the SBSO with firearms that I could ID were glocks
"So you know this cop?"
Do not need to know him nor would I want to as from what I have read he is not one one should associate with. Shooting an unarmed protector of our freedom on the ground is evidence enough for me, if I were on a jury, to put him away for life.
Seeing the tape is believing. Sound was clear. Cop was at an angle similar to what is seen on the tape and perhaps better. Flashlight lit victim.
Tempo of shots would eliminate accidental or negligent discharge.
Clearly this cop was angry and someone was going to get the short end of it. Can only wonder how many others have before.
I read that the videotographer was stopped three times by the Chino police within twelve hours of turning in the tape.
Bad cop protected by other bad cops.
In Texas, the law requires that you do so.
When I got stopped by the cop (locally reknowned as "Elvis") in a tiny speed trap town and showed him all required documentation, he asked, "Sir, do you have your sidearm with you?"
When I replied, "Yessir, I do", he replied, "Good! It ain't worth a d@#n if you don't have it with you!"
Gotta love Texas!
I've run into similar LEOs. A few of the FHP gents in the big bend region of Florida are quite friendly. My CCW has gotten me out of several tickets.
This whole thing is bizzarre.
At the end of a high-speed chase, one might find it prudent to do the felony stop drill, but who prones the suspect out on the side of his own car?
Once you have the guy proned out, why in the world would you stand him back up before hooking him?
This just does not pass the smell test. There is a lot more to this story than we are getting now, and it could go down a whole bunch of very twisty dark alleys before we find out what is going on in that department and with that young copper.
That was no accident.
No way no how.
The guy was on the ground so why was the cop so damned nervous? Why did he have his finger on the trigger? Where was his training?
Attempted murder.
Travis, I know that you dislike Glocks but I have trusted my life to one everyday since the early 1990's and don't plan to change. I have training so I don't need three safeties and a permission slip from Mom to cycle the trigger if need be. My finger would NEVER have been on the trigger.
This cop is a disgrace.
Actually, I don't dislike Glocks, and think they are better than pistols that are both DA/SA. THOSE are a hazard. Folks just have to treat that Glock with wide respect, and holster them properly, and NEVER put the finger in the guard until ready to fire.
100 + MPH Chase ?.......:o)
Rarestia's comments mirror my own opinion. I use the seatbelt, and the cruise control and avoid the rolling stops to prevent "any" contact with a LEO who may be the finest human beings with a badge on the face of this earth or one lousy loser piece of sh*t that considers themselves above the law and operates outside the law.......
This SP didn't deserve to be shot for standing up per the video observed. Even if he was not ordered to stand up or was told to stay down......
One key problem with LEO's per my experience and firsthand observations is that when a LEO breaks the law and gets fired they, in most cases, get to keep their certification but lose their commission at their former department and are free to seek employment with another department in that state or even another that will accept the certification .
LEO's fired with due process or prosecuted , that consider themselves above the law and operate outside the law, need to be unemployed and banned in any occupation that deals with law enforcement.
Ya'll Stay safe !
night time bttt
Glocks are fine pistols for a lot of people. That said you like what your are used to and what fits. For my hands glocks have horrible ergonomics. And the ugliness of a glock is noteworthy :) For me there is no finer fit than a SIG
Attempted murder doesn't fit the elements necessary for a death penalty sentence in Texas. As to the other post about murder under color of authority--it's not an auto death sentence.
Believe it or not there is no such thing as an automatic death sentence anymore in Texas.
'course there are still "sure things".
That SCUMBAG LEO needs to FRY for this!
"Get up, Get up" ,"shots fired" called into the radio like they were fired at him.
What a jacka$$.
And this prick is on PAID LEAVE??????!!!!!!!!!!
What a POS
And ALWAYS keep you hands in plain sight.
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