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To: mlc9852; Right Wing Professor; metmom
If science cannot define a human, then how do you know if a fossil was from a human or not? There must be scientific parameters that are used. I just am having trouble finding out what they are? Language, brain size, DNA? Help me out here.

The point is that you're getting pointlessly hung up on labels. Since the "dividing line" between closely related species is fuzzy and can't be nailed down to any one exact spot, it doesn't make sense to obsess over whether a particular transitional specimen falls on the "human side" or the "non-human side" of some imaginary dividing line.

Instead, the sensible thing to do is to determine how close or far it lies from, say, modern humans, and how close or far it lies from modern chimps, or some other paleontological specimen, etc.

Evolution produces spectrums of forms, not fixed and separate types. Obsessing over whether some transitional "in-between" specimen falls on the "human" side of an imaginary dividing line or not is generally a waste of tmie. It's like trying to argue over whether a particular shade in the color spectrum is still best labeled as "blue" or whether it has "suddenly" become more appropriately labeled "turquoise". Instead, it makes more sense to state that its wavelength is 60% closer to blue than to turquoise, or some other measure of the degree of its position in the continuous spectrum, rather than argue about what label you might want to slap on it.

The same goes for transitional fossils. For many of the "in-betweeners", it's inaccurate to label it *either* "human" *or* "non-human ape", because it's a mix of *both*.

Maybe the following, from an old post of mine will help make the point even more clear:


The same issue arises at higher taxonomic levels as well. For example, from a creationist standpoint, where do "apes" end and "humans" begin? From an evolutionary standpoint, one would *expect* there to be "gray area" cases where one form "fuzzes" into the other, and a simple "either or" determination is difficult to make in an objective manner. And that's exactly what we do find. What's really hilarious is when the creationists try to force-fit these specimens into their preconceived (but false) "either or" categories -- the creationist notions crash into reality and go down in flames. For example:

[From here:]

The following table summarizes the diversity of creationist opinions about some of the more prominent items in the human fossil record.

Creationist Classifications of Hominid Fossils
Specimen Cuozzo
(1998)
Gish
(1985)
Mehlert
(1996)
Bowden
(1981)
Menton
(1988)
Taylor
(1992)
Gish
(1979)
Baker
(1976)
Taylor
and Van
Bebber
(1995)
Taylor
(1996)
Lubenow
(1992)
ER 1813 ER 1813
(510 cc)
Ape Ape Ape Ape Ape Ape
Java Man Java
(940 cc)
Ape Ape Human Ape Ape Human
Peking Man Peking
(915-
1225 cc)
Ape Ape Human Ape Human Human
ER 1470 ER 1470
(750 cc)
Ape Ape Ape Human Human Human
ER 3733 ER 3733
(850 cc)
Ape Human Human Human Human Human
WT 15000 WT 15000
(880 cc)
Ape Human Human Human Human Human

As this table shows, although creationists are adamant that none of these are transitional and all are either apes or humans, they are not able to tell which are which. In fact, there are a number of creationists who have changed their opinion on some fossils. They do not even appear to be converging towards a consistent opinion. Gish and Taylor both used to consider Peking Man an ape and 1470 a human, but now Gish says they are both apes, and Taylor says they were both humans. Interestingly, widely differing views are held by two of the most prominent creationist researchers on human origins, Gish and Lubenow. Bowden, who has also written a book on human evolution, agrees with neither of them, and Mehlert, who has written a number of articles on human evolution in creationist journals, has yet another opinion, as does Cuozzo in his 1998 book on Neandertals. Cuozzo has taken the most extreme stance yet for a young-earth creationist, saying that even H. erectus fossils (in which he includes the Turkana Boy) should not be considered human. (Old-earth creationist Hugh Ross takes an even more extreme stance, claiming that not even Neandertals should be classified as human.)

It could be pointed out that evolutionists also disagree on how fossils should be classified, which species they belong to, etc. True enough. But according to evolutionary thinking, these fossils come from a number of closely related species intermediate between apes and humans. If this is so, we would expect to find that some of them are hard to classify, and we do.

Creationists, on the other hand, assert that apes and humans are separated by a wide gap. If this is true, deciding on which side of that gap individual fossils lie should be trivially easy. Clearly, that is not the case.

ER 1813 (H. habilis?, 510 cc) is almost totally ignored by creationists, but it is safe to say that they would all classify it as an ape. Few mention ER 3733 (H. erectus, 850 cc) either, but those who do seem to consider it human (although it's hard to be sure in Bowden's case). As one would expect given its essentially human skeleton, virtually all creationists consider the Turkana Boy to be human, although Cuozzo has been a recent exception. (Cuozzo recognizes that it is different from any modern ape, of course; he believes that apes have degenerated from Homo erectus, just as he believes that modern humans have degenerated from Neandertals.)

It would be fascinating to know what creationists think about fossils such as OH 12 (H. erectus, 750 cc), Sangiran 2 (H. erectus, 815 cc), OH 7 (H. habilis, 680 cc), OH 13 (H. habilis, 650 cc), but unfortunately few creationists even mention these fossils, let alone discuss them in any depth. The recently-discovered Dmanisi skulls overlap the erectus/habilis boundary so perfectly that creationists have almost totally ignored it - and when they have mentioned it, they've carefully avoided making any judgement as to what those skulls might be.


643 posted on 02/01/2006 2:00:24 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon
I just don't think humans evolved from something else. And since there is such debate over which ones were apes and which were humans, I will go under the assumption that apes were and are apes and humans were and are humans. Closely related just as many species are closely related. I'm still learning what different scientists think so I am not sure when I will have enough information that I actually will feel assured of what I believe. I am trying to keep an open mind, but I am looking at things as if we were created separately so I will be looking for interpretations to confirm what I believe. It may not be "scientific", but that's my viewpoint.

You emphasize the disagreement among creationists but there are also many disagreement among scientists so that doesn't worry me. What worries me is how many actual "experts" there are that are truly qualified to make determinations that so many others are going to give great weight to, if you understand what I'm trying to say. If there are thousands of scientists checking fossils, doing the aging, categorizing species, etc., then that's good. If it's basically a hundred or so, then I would question more. And who decides if something is a new species. I have really tried to find out but I haven't been able to. I found the organization that handles the names but they don't make the decisions of species.

I just still have a lot of questions.
660 posted on 02/01/2006 2:52:43 PM PST by mlc9852
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