Posted on 01/29/2006 10:16:44 AM PST by ChicagoHebrew
"Their religious beliefs? If it is the latter, their beliefs appear to truly adhere to the the teachings of Moses. The Talmud and Kabbalah are add ons."
The traditional Jewish idea is the Oral torah, the Talmud, was also recieved by Moses.
Karaites put the Old Testament before Talmud/Rabbinic law and consider themselves Jews. Would you say that Protestants are not Christian because they put Bible above the Church tradition and commentaries?
Good comparison, A. Pole. Talmudists and Kabbalists are to Judaism as Roman Catholics are to Christianity. Or, as as Mormons are to Christianity. Or, as the Sunni Muslims are to Islam.
Karaites, Protestants, and Shiites make the same claim in their respective religions. Aka the original teachings had become corrupted, overlain with human tradition, a departure from the original teachings of their respective religions.
>If I am not mistake "torah" means Law. So it would the five books of Moses?
Ok. So, Torah is the bible. Why not call Bible then?
Another question if you don't mind: what is this thing called talmud?
May all freepers forgive me for including the Muslims in this. I did it only to make my point. They are not even in the same league with Judaism and Christianity. Sunnis, Shiites, Sufis, whatever.
The basis of Judaism and Christianity is the same revealed word of God, the Tanach to the Jews, the Old Testament to Christians. Islam might have the same claim, however, the Koran is but a syncretistic amalgam, clearly bogus.
Because there other books of the Old Testament like Psalms or books of Prophets. "Bible" is an English form of the Greek word "Biblia" - "books". Haghia Biblia - Holy Books.
Another question if you don't mind: what is this thing called talmud?
You have several people here who are better qualified to answer it, so I will skip it.
Thanks.
"The Talmud is a vast collection of Jewish laws and traditions."
Thanks. Saved the link.
The traditional Jewish idea is the Oral torah, the Talmud, was also recieved by Moses.
Karaite Judaism flatly denies that Moses received any such "oral" Torah. The Torah, they believe, is the words of Moses written in the first five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch.
I agree with the Karaites.
Maybe there is a new movement of people who like to call themselves Karaites. They can make up any believe system they want. Karaites, who still exist and have a small community in Israel and there are some from Egypt, are called Karaites, not Jews. Is there some reason why you WANT to believe they are actually Jews? Does this serve some purpose for you? You aren't Jewish, and you don't understand Jewish law, so how do you offer yourself up as an expert on the definition of Judaism? According to your logic, Jews are actually Christians, even if they don't believe in Christianity, because they have a similar foundation in the Torah (five books of Moses.) Frankly, I don't get why this is even being debated. Judaism dismissed the practice of Karaitism as not being Judaism a long time ago. As we have seen, even today, there are people who call themselves Jews who are actually not Jewish. If you would like to insist that Karaites are Jews, that is your deal. If you would like to find some Jews on FR who would like to join you in your belief, please go ahead. To say that you are still practicing Judaism if you don't accept Oral Law is nonsense.
Wrong answer. The Masoretic version of the Old Testament took its final form at the end of the Babylonian exile, about 350 BC. But thanks for playing.
In 4543 (733 AD), there lived in Beth-Zur, a town not far from Hebron, a man by the name of 'Anan ענן a scholar of the then Gaon, Rabbi Yehudai, of Babylon. He had observed in his scholar that he had neither affection for, nor faith in our tradition as an exposition of the written law; wherefore he ('Anan) could not be chosen either as Resh Gelutha or Gaon. He returned, therefore, to his native country, Palestine, and formed a new sect, the leader of which he became, by openly preaching against our system of tradition. The sect of the Sadducees, who only adopted the written law and rejected the tradition, had gradually fallen entirely into decay after the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, and had become nearly dissolved. But the appearance of 'Anan gave them new life, and they soon increased and spread extensively in Palestine, Egypt, and North Africa. In Palestine, they had yet another learned chief, Sheich Abu al Ferag, who wrote a work, bearing his own name, concerning the principles of his sect, and which contains much that is absurd and blasphemous. He is the same Abu al Ferag who is frequently mentioned in the Opinions of Maimonides תשובות הרמב״ם. Anan had a wife who was called Al Me'alma, i. e. the learned, the instructress, who was acknowledged chief of his sect after the death of her husband, and was consulted in all cases of doubt; and as everything was decided according to her opinion and practice, it came to be customary to ask among the sect, "How did Al Me'alma on that occasion? or what was her practice in that case?" and every one looked up to her for guidance. When, at a later period, Rabbi Joseph Ben Ali became Nahssi in Africa, he used every effort to suppress this sect in all directions,--so that it was nearly dissolved, and but few vestiges are found thereof at the present time; since all that is left are the few Caraites קראים who only acknowledge the written law, are partly descended from the ancient Sadducees, and are found in several places in Asia and Egypt. We find mentioned in Abn Ezra's Commentary on the Pentateuch, several ridiculous expositions of many passages of Holy Writ ascribed to a certain Anan; it would, therefore, appear that he also had composed a commentary on the books of Moses.
From: History of Palestine
ping
One of my best friends ever was a man, a Rabbi who I later learned was a Qabbalist.
He was a wonderful person, but I never really got to know him as much as I should have, and could have.
I wish that I looked more into that mysticism stuff, cuz nowadays I am completely intrigued by it all, and I have no sources outside this forum in that realm.
I never knew that....I bet they tend to be more conservative.....am I wrong?
I had an Iraeli pal who delved into the Kabala and Zorah...then he went uber Orthodox. The Seeker.
Wrong, Karaites call themselves Jews, and view Karaism as a sect (the original sect, in their view) of Judaism. That's what they've always believed, and what you'll see on any Karaite website or pamphlet.
Here is a sampling of quotes from the 10th century Karaite leader, Salmon ben Yeruham. They show the distinction between Karaite Judaism and Talmudic Judaism. His reasoning is simple. The written law is divinely inspired, the so called “oral” one, the Talmud, is not the Bible at all, but the opinions of Rabbis centuries later, often contradicting each other.
“You say that the Rock [God] has given Israel two Laws,
One which is written, and one which was preserved in your mouths.
If this is as you say,
Then indeed your deeds are but falsehood and rebellion against God.
Had the Merciful One wished to write it down,
He would have had it written down by Moses.
They wrote down both Laws, thus contemning the commandment of the Almighty.
Where, then, is the oral Law in which they place their trust?
Their words have become void and meaningless,
And out of their own mouths have they testified that they have drawn God's wrath upon themselves.
And they lack the formula: "And the Lord spoke unto Moses and unto Aaron."
I therefore put them aside, and I said, There is no true Law in them,
For the Law is set forth in a different manner,
In a majestic display of prophets, of signs, and of miracles;
Yet all this majestic beauty we do not see in the whole Mishnah.
When they say, "Rabbi So-and-so said thus-and-so.
I answer and say, I too, am the learned So-and-so.
Thine escape has been cut off by this argument, else answer me, if thou canst.
It is written: The Law of the Lord is perfect (Ps. 19:8).
What profit be there for us, then, in the written Mishnah?
I have seen also in the Talmud -
Which you Rabbanites regard as if it were your main supporting column,
And which is made by you a partner to the Law of Moses,
And is held beloved and desirable in your hearts –
The bellowing of the School of Shammay against the School of Hillel, to controvert their words,
As well as that of the School of Hillel against the School of Shammay, to refute their interpretations of law.
This one invokes blessings, and that one heaps curses upon their heads,
Yet both are an abomination in the sight of the Lord.”
On other issues, Karaites are more liberal. They mix chicken and dairy, don't wear tefillin, don't worry about how their tzitzit are knotted, etc.
If they call themselves Jews, why would they call themselves Karaites? Do you know any Karaites? The ones in Israel aren't considered Jews and would have to convert in order to be Jewish. So again, it really doesn't matter what a pamphlet or website says. THEY AREN'T JEWISH. Are you Jewish, ChicagoHebrew?
Years ago I did read several books related to Judaism, including fragments of English translation of Talmud (I did not have time or patience to read everything). One of my readings was Faith Strengthened by Isaac from Troki written in about 1500AD. It is probably the best Jewish polemics against Christianity and was given to me by one rabbi.
Also Karaites are related to the Polish history and I knew a Polish Karaite from old family. This made me interested in their history.
Another reason was the debate I had with Protestant friends about canon of the Bible. Protestants rejected Christian biblical tradition of the first 15 centuries and instead they embraced the Masoretic anti-Karaite version from 800AD.
According to your logic, Jews are actually Christians, even if they don't believe in Christianity, because they have a similar foundation in the Torah (five books of Moses.)
You are not far of the mark. I do think that the Church and the Synagogue are the two branches of the same religion. The key difference is what is believed to be the Redemption/Tikkun. Those Jews who became the first Christians accepted the teaching of Jesus that the Kingdom of God is not of this world and that man has higher heavenly calling.
Those Jews who thought that Messiah/Christ (Christos is a Greek word for the Anointed One) will repair this world, will bring freedom and justice to the Jews and to whole world decided to wait for the other one. (Still they expected Messiah to come at that time and it was one of the motives for the mass uprisings against Roman oppressors).
In the post-Christian Jewish/Talmudic perspective the man is created primarily for this world and this world has to be brought to order.
Before the split the both interpretations - the spiritualist/otherworldly one and second more down to the earth were present among Jews and got separated after Jesus. I assume that this moment of fatal decision is referred by the warning of Saint John the Baptist: "Repent, for the Kingdom of the Heavens is now close at hand"
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