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To: IronJack
"In fact, to assert a random origin of the universe defies -- or at least ducks -- the Law of Logical Parsimony, otherwise known as Occam's Razor."

I think you have that wrong way around. If the existence of the universe suggests a designer, then the existence of a designer implies the existence of a meta-designer and so on infinitely like the layers of an onion of Russian dolls.

Occams razor would suggest a simpler universe that arose randomly without the need for an infinite overlay of designers. IMHO

22 posted on 01/25/2006 2:39:45 PM PST by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: muir_redwoods
I think you have that wrong way around. If the existence of the universe suggests a designer, then the existence of a designer implies the existence of a meta-designer and so on infinitely like the layers of an onion of Russian dolls. Occams razor would suggest a simpler universe that arose randomly without the need for an infinite overlay of designers. IMHO

Respectfully disagree. The complexity, elegance and symmetry of forms in the microcosm suggests an Intelligence that exceeds our paradigms. Such an Intelligence cannot be assumed to have a CAD system and laborious human development methods. These forms are not mechanical; the Intelligence knows how to grow them organically. I do not think creation happened once and now it's over. It is ongoing and unfolding.

24 posted on 01/25/2006 3:16:13 PM PST by Albion Wilde (America will not run, and we will not forget our responsibilities. – George W. Bush)
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To: muir_redwoods
... the existence of a designer implies the existence of a meta-designer and so on infinitely

The "Big Bang" and other mechanistic theories of the universe require the same extension. God solves it -- albeit via circular reasoning -- by saying that He "has always been and will always be."

Occams razor would suggest a simpler universe that arose randomly without the need for an infinite overlay of designers.

Laying aside the question of infinite designers, the assertion that random variables combined to create the unfathomable complexities of the universe is every bit as hard to believe as the existence of a Being capable of the same feat. In fact, by removing the element of randomness, you have necessarily decreased the complexity. Thus, Occam's Razor holds.

28 posted on 01/25/2006 3:42:29 PM PST by IronJack
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