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To: Amelia
f there's no correlation, there's no correlation. You can't have it both ways unless you're playing games with the statistics.

My point EXACTLY.

It is not the majority of teachers individually that present the problem.

It is their closed-shop union schools and the fervant, even rabid, anti-American, anti-Christian bias prevalent in the colleges that prepare them, that present the greatest part of the problem.

A very large part of the definition of a Professional is one who represents himself in his field of expertise. Professionals typically belong to guilds or societies that foster advances in their field, but do not represent their members in "collective bargaining" (a Marxist term if ever there was one).

Historically, unions are for those incapable of representing or defending themselves in the face of organized opposition or bastions of moneyed interests.

One can hardly characterize the homeowners and residents of a town as a bastion of moneyed interests organizing to oppress the teachers.

By organizing themselves into unions, the teachers have sold-out their heritage for a bowl of pottage, having foregone their professional status for the status of a factory worker, or skilled labor at best.

However, most teachers do not have a choice anymore whether to join the union.

Virtually all "Public" schools are closed shops, meaning, if you don't belong to the union, and accept all of the implications that has, then you cannot work there.

As with most union shops, quality declines as costs increase. This is a demonstrable, historical fact.

219 posted on 01/24/2006 11:17:30 PM PST by Westbrook (Having more children does not divide your love, it multiplies it!)
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To: Westbrook
My point EXACTLY.

Not quite. First you say there is no correlation whatsoever, and then you say there is definitely a negative correlation. It has to be either/or; can't be both.

But, as I say, there are many confounding factors.

A very large part of the definition of a Professional is one who represents himself in his field of expertise. Professionals typically belong to guilds or societies that foster advances in their field, but do not represent their members in "collective bargaining" (a Marxist term if ever there was one).

I agree with you.

One can hardly characterize the homeowners and residents of a town as a bastion of moneyed interests organizing to oppress the teachers.

You'd be surprised at some of the small towns...just getting a job can require family or political connections, rather than expertise. Also, offending the powers-that-be (for example, "failing" the star football player so that he's ineligible to play) could be a "firing offense" if there's no tenure.

By organizing themselves into unions, the teachers have sold-out their heritage for a bowl of pottage, having foregone their professional status for the status of a factory worker, or skilled labor at best.

I'm not sure that teachers ever, in most places, had the stature of other professionals, although at one point in time there was more respect for teachers AND others in positions of authority such as policemen I think.

However, most teachers do not have a choice anymore whether to join the union. Virtually all "Public" schools are closed shops, meaning, if you don't belong to the union, and accept all of the implications that has, then you cannot work there.

This may be true in your state, but it is not in mine. Again, there is enough local & state control in the United States that it's impossible to paint education as a whole with a broad brush.

The major reason people I know have joined the union (which isn't strong in my state to begin with) is for liability insurance, in case parents sued because of a child being injured on the playground or in lab class, for instance.

Until the legislature passed a law giving all teachers a certain amount of such insurance a couple of years ago, the only way to obtain it was through joining a union or other teacher's organization. I tried to get it through my homeowner's policy, for instance, but could not.

220 posted on 01/25/2006 3:02:31 AM PST by Amelia (Education exists to overcome ignorance, not validate it.)
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