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Constitutional right to privacy a figment of imagination
Houston Chronicle ^ | January 15, 2005 | JUDGE HAROLD R. DEMOSS JR.

Posted on 01/15/2006 8:59:46 AM PST by Dog Gone

In this season of politicized and contentious confirmation hearings to fill vacancies on the U.S. Supreme Court, some of the sharpest debate and disagreement concerns a so-called "right of privacy" in the U.S. Constitution.

The advocates of a constitutional right of privacy speak as though that right were expressly stated and enumerated in the Constitution. But the text of the Constitution does not contain the word "privacy" or the phrase "right of privacy."

Consequently, in my view, a constitutional "right of privacy" could only be unenumerated and is therefore a figment of the imagination of a majority of the justices on the modern Supreme Court. Let me explain why.

Webster's Dictionary defines "enumerate" as "to name or count or specify one by one." Roget's Thesaurus states that the synonyms for "enumerate" are "to itemize, list, or tick off." Adding the negative prefix "un" reverses the definitions or synonyms so that "unenumerated" means not named, not counted, not specified, not itemized, or not listed.

The right of privacy is unenumerated because neither the word privacy nor the phrase right of privacy appears anywhere in the Constitution or its amendments. Nor does the text contain any words related to other rights the Supreme Court has found to derive from that right, including the right to an abortion and rights related to sexual preference. Neither "abortion" nor "sexual preference" appear anywhere in the text of the Constitution.

The idea of a constitutional "right of privacy" was not even recognized by the Supreme Court until 1965, when Justice William O. Douglas used the idea in writing for the majority in Griswold v. Connecticut, where the court concluded that a state law criminalizing the use of contraception was unconstitutional when applied to married couples because it violated a constitutional right of privacy. That was 176 years after ratification of the Constitution, 174 years after ratification of the Bill of Rights and 97 years after the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment.

In his opinion, Justice Douglas cited cases that he maintained, "bear witness that the right of privacy which presses for recognition [in Griswold] is a legitimate one."

Note the phrase "which presses for recognition." That phrase reveals that the right of privacy, that is still hotly debated by the American people today, was first recognized by the Supreme Court in this opinion. Note, also, that if the right of privacy had been "named" or "listed" or "specified" or "itemized" in the Constitution, there would have been no need for it to "press for recognition" in this opinion.

What the Supreme Court was really doing with such language was interpreting some of the specific prohibitions enumerated in the Bill of Rights as indicating the existence of a general right of privacy that is not expressly written, and then finding a new specific right, i.e., the right to use contraceptives, as an unstated part of the unstated general right of privacy.

This same technique was used by the Supreme Court in 1973 in Roe v. Wade, in which the majority stated:

"The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy. In a line of decisions, however, going back perhaps as far as [1891], the court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution. In varying contexts, the court or individual justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right in the First Amendment, in the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, [and] in the penumbras of the Bill of Rights.

"This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or as the district court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy."

Just substitute "a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy" (Roe) for "a married couple's right to use contraceptives" (Griswold) and the Supreme Court again found an unstated specific right within the unstated general right of privacy. Note also that the Supreme Court admitted in the first sentence of the above quotation that "the Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy." I think my use of the adjective "unenumerated" in this context is both accurate and appropriate.

The court's choice of the word "penumbra" and the phrase "penumbras of the

Bill of Rights" in these opinions is revealing.

According to Webster's, penumbra comes from two Latin roots: paene, meaning almost, and umbra, meaning shadow. The meaning of penumbra, as stated in the dictionary, that is relevant to our understanding of the Supreme Court's opinions regarding the Bill of Rights is "an outlying, surrounding region."

So the use of the word penumbra by the Supreme Court should be understood to mean that in the court's view the right of privacy exists somewhere in the region that surrounds and lies outside of the Bill of Rights.

But there is absolutely nothing in the text of the Bill of Rights about any such surrounding or outlying area, nor is there any catch-all phrase (like "other similar rights") indicating that the rights specifically enumerated exemplify a larger class of rights that were not enumerated. Consequently, whatever rights might be found in the phrase exist only in the mind, contemplation and imagination of each individual reader and are not part of the constitutional text.

Some proponents of a constitutional right of privacy insist that it can be found in the liberty clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. But the liberty clause of the Fourteenth Amendment is identical to the liberty clause in the Fifth Amendment; and just as in the case of the Bill of Rights, neither the word "privacy" nor the phrase "right of privacy" appear anywhere in the Fourteenth Amendment, much less in the liberty clause.

The fact that the Supreme Court has said that the right of privacy could come from the First, Fourth, Fifth or Fourteenth amendments is solid evidence that the court is just guessing about where it does come from.

The Supreme Court's actions I have just described amount to an attempt to amend the Constitution rather than an interpretation of its text. Let me explain why.

There are two ways to amend a document like the Constitution:

(1) you can delete words that already exist therein; or (2) you can add new words not previously included.

The latter is what the Supreme Court has done, and this action differs fundamentally from the court's legitimate task of interpreting and applying existing words and phrases like "cruel and unusual punishment," "due process," "public use" and "establishment of religion" that appear verbatim either in the text of the Constitution or its amendments.

But the Constitution does not give the Supreme Court the power to amend the Constitution. Neither the Supreme Court (the judicial branch) nor the president (the executive branch) is mentioned in Article V of the Constitution, which defines the process for amending the Constitution.

As defined in Article V, the power to amend lies with the American people, acting through the Congress and the state legislatures. It is "We, the people, of the United States" who are expressly denominated as the acting parties in our original Constitution who "do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Likewise, in our Declaration of Independence, one of the truths we declared to be self-evident is that "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

Our first president, George Washington, put it this way in his farewell address to the nation in 1796:

"The basis of our political system is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government.

"If in the opinion of the people the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by amendment in the way which the Constitution designates but let there be no change by usurpation; for though this in one instance may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed."

Similarly Chief Justice John Marshall wrote as follows in his historic opinion in Marbury v. Madison:

"That the people have an original right to establish, for their future government, such principles as, in their opinion, shall most conduce to their own happiness, is the basis on which the whole American fabric has been erected.

"From these, and many other selections which might be made, it is apparent, that the framers of the Constitution contemplated that instrument, as a rule for the government of courts, as well as of the legislature."

The Constitution does speak to the circumstance of unenumerated rights in the Ninth and Tenth amendments. The Ninth Amendment in simple plain English says, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The right of privacy is not one of the rights enumerated in the Constitution, and consequently, the Ninth Amendment gives us two instructions: first, we are not "to deny or disparage" the existence of a right of privacy simply because it is not enumerated in the Constitution; and second, we are required to recognize that any such right of privacy is "retained by the people."

Clearly, a right of privacy exists at some level, but it has not been made subject to the Constitution unless and until the people act to make it so.

Likewise, the Tenth Amendment simply states, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

The Constitution does not delegate to the Supreme Court (or any other branch of the U.S. government) any power to define, apply, or enforce whatever may be the right of privacy retained by the people. Similarly, the U.S. Constitution does not prohibit any state in particular, nor all states in general, from defining, applying or enforcing whatever the people of that state may choose as the right of privacy. Therefore, as the Tenth Amendment clearly provides, the power to define, apply or enforce a right of privacy is "reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

By finding a constitutional right of privacy that is not expressly enumerated in the Constitution, the Supreme Court has "usurped" the roles and powers of the people, the Congress, and the state legislatures.

Shed of all semantical posturing, the critical issue becomes: Does the U.S. Constitution permit amendments by judicial fiat?

Some argue that the Constitution must be a "living, breathing instrument" and that it is right and proper for a majority of the Supreme Court to decide when, where and how the Constitution needs to be changed so as to be "relevant to modern times."

These folks operate on the premise that the Supreme Court is infallible and omnipotent, and that once the Supreme Court has spoken, there is no way to change its ruling.

I disagree with that view. But we as a society must decide which view should prevail.

On several occasions the Supreme Court has held that Congress does not have the power to change by legislation a prior Supreme Court decision. Similarly, nothing in the Constitution instills the president with the power to do so. Therefore, to remedy the "usurpation" by the Supreme Court as to a "right of privacy," we must go to the highest authority — the people.

Thus, the ultimate remedy to this controversy lies not with the individual members of the Supreme Court, but with the people whose will could be expressed in the form of a national referendum either affirming or rejecting the Supreme Court's actions.

Such a national referendum would be a win-win situation. For those who support the power of five justices to amend the Constitution as they see fit, it would afford the opportunity to demonstrate that a majority of the people in each of a majority of the states agree with the Supreme Court and that therefore, the right of privacy should be treated as a part of the Constitution, just as if it had been adopted by the amendment process in Article V.

On the other hand, for those of us who believe the Supreme Court has usurped the power of the people to consent or not to consent to a constitutional change, a national referendum would afford the opportunity to demonstrate that a majority of the people in each of a majority of the states reject the power of the Supreme Court to make constitutional changes.

The will of the people would then override any judicially fabricated constitutional amendment, and the right of privacy would not be treated as part of the Constitution.

This referendum could be called by Congress and placed on the November 2006 ballot for Congressional elections.

This controversy has been brewing for more than 30 years with little sign of resolution. The best thing would be to settle this controversy one way or another as quickly as possible by a vote of all of the people.

As a U.S. citizen, I respectfully petition the Congress to call a national referendum to permit the people to just say no or yes to the Supreme Court's usurpation of the power to amend the Constitution. I invite others who share my views to do likewise.

DeMoss practiced law in Houston for 34 years before being appointed in 1991 by former President George H.W. Bush to the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, where he now serves.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial
KEYWORDS: billofrights; constitutionlist; libertarians; privacy; scotus
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To: Dead Corpse
"Mr. LAWRENCE. Only a few words will be necessary to convince us that Congress have this power. It is declared by the Constitution, that its ordinances shall be the supreme law of the land. If the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, every part of it must partake of this supremacy; consequently, every general declaration it contains is the supreme law. But then these general declarations cannot be carried into effect without particular regulations adapted to the circumstances: these particular regulations are to be made by Congress, who, by the Constitution, have power to make all laws necessary or proper to carry the declarations of the Constitution into effect. The Constitution likewise declares that the members of the state legislatures, and all officers, executive and judicial, shall take an oath to support the Constitution. This declaration is general, and it lies with the supreme legislature to detail and regulate it."

What does it prove? It certainly doesn't prove that all clauses apply to the states. Everybody has to uphold the Constitution, but it does not mean that you have to follow the rules that don't apply to you.

501 posted on 01/18/2006 9:17:59 AM PST by Tarkin (Impeach Justice Ginsburg)
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To: Dead Corpse

We have quotes from the framers of the Constitution and the Amendments that clearly show that the BoR was not meant to apply to the states. If they f.ex. wanted the right to trial by jury to apply to the states they would accept the additional amendment proposed by Madison. If they wanted the RKBA to apply to the states they would explicitly say so. Read the Introduction to BoR written by Madison.


502 posted on 01/18/2006 9:22:07 AM PST by Tarkin (Impeach Justice Ginsburg)
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To: Tarkin
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury

You left off the next part of the Sixth:

...of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed

In other words, this is a mandate to the states as well.

My position stands. IMO the Second was sandbagged by early SCOTUS politics over state powers, just as the 10th has been sandbagged ever since the days of FDR.

503 posted on 01/18/2006 9:52:49 AM PST by dirtboy (My new years resolution is to quit using taglines...)
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To: Tarkin
We have quotes from the framers of the Constitution and the Amendments that clearly show that the BoR was not meant to apply to the states.

You mean like this one?

Art 6. Para 2.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Game. Set. Match.

504 posted on 01/18/2006 9:55:27 AM PST by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be. -El Neil)
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To: Tarkin
What does it prove?

It proves that the delegates voting in the new Constitution knew a hell of a lot more about what they were doing than you do.

505 posted on 01/18/2006 10:03:40 AM PST by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be. -El Neil)
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To: Tarkin
Article VI is the proof of my claims.

Read it, then try to refute what it says about State constitutions & laws "to the Contrary, notwithstanding"..

Citations of opinions do not trump the clear words of Article VI..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Tarkin:
Of course they don't. Nobody claims to trump the clear words of Article VI.

--The states don't need to follow the rules which don't apply to them, just as you don't need to follow the rules which don't apply to you.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


And under your ridiculous reading of the clause.....states would cease to exist.
In your view, what, if any, power do the states retain?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I view both our duty to "follow the rules" and the state/fed power issue much as does Ezra Taft Benson in his great essay:

The Proper Role of Government
Address:http://www.usiap.org/Legacy/Addresses/ProperRoleOfGovt.html


You two really do need to read it.

-- Get back to me if you can understand his POV. -- Or feel free to critique it if you can't.
506 posted on 01/18/2006 10:07:57 AM PST by don asmussen
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To: Tarkin; Conservative Goddess

Article VI is the proof of my claims.

Read it, then try to refute what it says about State constitutions & laws "to the Contrary, notwithstanding"..

Citations of opinions do not trump the clear words of Article VI..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Tarkin:
Of course they don't. Nobody claims to trump the clear words of Article VI.

--The states don't need to follow the rules which don't apply to them, just as you don't need to follow the rules which don't apply to you.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Conservative Goddess;

And under your ridiculous reading of the clause.....states would cease to exist.
In your view, what, if any, power do the states retain?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I view both our duty to "follow the rules" and the state/fed power issue much as does Ezra Taft Benson in his great essay:

The Proper Role of Government
Address:http://www.usiap.org/Legacy/Addresses/ProperRoleOfGovt.html


You two really do need to read it.

-- Get back to me if you can understand his POV. -- Or feel free to critique it if you can't.


507 posted on 01/18/2006 10:12:30 AM PST by don asmussen
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To: don asmussen
6. That the national legislature ought to be empowered to enjoy the legislative rights vested in Congress by the Confederation, and more-over to legislate in all cases to which the seperate states are incompetent, or in which the harmony of the United States may be interrupted by the exercise of individual legislation; to negative all laws passed by the several states, contravening, in the opinion of the legislature of the United States, the articles of the union, or any treaties subsisting under the authority of the Union.
-Luther Martin. 1788.
508 posted on 01/18/2006 12:23:04 PM PST by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be. -El Neil)
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To: dirtboy
Trying to devine the intent of the Founders allows words and meaning not existant in the clear words of the Constitution to be found there.

Of course we don't need to divine the intent or purpose of the Constitution of the United States. Neither did Marshall since the purpose of the Constitution is in the body of the document itself.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

When view from the preamble, things grow sharply into focus. It is not the founders intent that matters, it is the intent of "the people". And "the people" were those folks who occupied the United States of America since and from 1776 to the ratification.

In McCulloch v. Maryland, Marshall says the following:

"From these conventions the constitution derives its whole authority. The government proceeds directly from the people; is "ordained and established" in the name of the people; and is declared to be ordained, "in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, and secure the blessings of liberty to themselves and to their posterity." The assent of the States, in their sovereign capacity, is implied in calling a convention, and thus submitting that instrument to the people. But the people were at perfect liberty to accept or reject it; and their act was final. It required not the affirmance, and could not be negatived, by the State governments. The constitution, when thus adopted, was of complete obligation, and bound the State sovereignties. . . .

Which makes clear that any declaratory statements in the Constitution emanate from the people and not the states. Thus, when the people declare that "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged." that is exactly what the people have declared. The people had the power to exempt the states from this declaration, they did not.

The people also declared that the "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be Supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding."

And that is exactly what the people meant. Marshall's use of Article 1 Sections 9 & 10 to declare otherwise simply ignores the facts he related in McCulloch v. Maryland, that being that "The constitution, when thus adopted, was of complete obligation, and bound the State sovereignties."

509 posted on 01/18/2006 12:29:03 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Dead Corpse; yall

The Source of Government Power

Leaving aside, for a moment, the question of the divine origin of rights, it is obvious that a government is nothing more or less than a relatively small group of citizens who have been hired, in a sense, by the rest of us to perform certain functions and discharge certain responsibilities which have been authorized.

It stands to reason that the government itself has no innate power or privilege to do anything.
Its only source of authority and power is from the people who have created it.
This is made clear in the Preamble to the Constitution for the United States, which reads: "WE THE PEOPLE...do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The important thing to keep in mind is that the people who have created their government can give to that government only such powers as they, themselves, have in the first place.
Obviously, they cannot give that which they do not possess. So, the question boils down to this. What powers properly belong to each and every person in the absence of and prior to the establishment of any organized governmental form?

A hypothetical question? Yes, indeed! But, it is a question which is vital to an understanding of the principles which underlie the proper function of government.

Ezra Benson.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


To bad they don't teach principles in 'law school'.


510 posted on 01/18/2006 12:34:15 PM PST by don asmussen
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To: don asmussen

Law schools are about law. The more laws there are, the more people need lawyers. Axiomatic that lawyers holding office would ensure the perpetuation of their species of parasite.


511 posted on 01/18/2006 12:42:55 PM PST by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be. -El Neil)
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To: Dog Gone

It would appear to me that there is a God given right of privacy just as there is a God given right of every man to obey his conscience in matters of religion and to acknowledge that God alone (never the government)has exclusive authority over matters of conscience, including the authority to advise or recommend with respect to the duty that is owed to the Creator.


512 posted on 01/18/2006 12:56:59 PM PST by FredFlash
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To: dirtboy; Tarkin
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."

Well Tarkin?

513 posted on 01/18/2006 1:26:09 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Tarkin
Amendment 5

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

People v Goodwin 1820 NY

" The defendant's counsel rely, principally, on the 5th article of the amendments to the constitution of the United States, which contains this provision: "Nor shall any person be subject for the same offence, to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb." It has been urged by the prisoner's counsel, that this constitutional provision operates upon state courts proprio vigore. This has been denied on the other side. I do not consider it material whether this provision be considered as extending to the state tribunals or not; the principle is a sound and fundamental one of the common law, that no man shall be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb for the same offence. I am, however, inclined to the opinion, that the article in question does extend to all judicial tribunals in the United States, whether constituted by the Congress of the United States, or the states individually. The provision is general in its nature, and unrestricted in its terms; and the sixth article of the constitution declares, that that constitution shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding. These general and comprehensive expressions extend the provisions of the constitution of the United States to every article which is not confined, by the subject matter, to the national government, and is equally applicable to the states. Be this as it may, the principle is undeniable, that no person can be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, for the same offence." Chief Justice Spencer New York

514 posted on 01/18/2006 2:00:57 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: dirtboy; don asmussen; Dead Corpse; Tarkin
Amendment 2

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Nunn v State of Georgia, 1846

Judge Lumpkin in a nice rebuke of Marshall writes in part:

"The language of the second amendment is broad enough to embrace both Federal and State governments--nor is there anything in its terms which restricts its meaning. The preamble which was prefixed to these amendments shows, that they originated in the fear that the powers of the general government were not sufficiently limited. Several of the States, in their act of ratification, recommended that further restrictive clauses should be added. And in the first session of the first Congress, ten of these amendments having been agreed to by that body, and afterwards sanctioned by three-fourths of the States, became a part of the Constitution. But admitting all this, does it follow that because the people refused to delegate to the general government the power to take from them the right to keep and bear arms, that they designed to rest it in the State governments? Is this a right reserved to the States or to themselves? Is it not an inalienable right, which lies at the bottom of every free government? We do not believe that, because the people withheld this arbitrary power of disfranchisement from Congress, they ever intended to confer it on the local legislatures. This right is too dear to be confided to a republican legislature." Judge Lumpkin

Amen.

515 posted on 01/18/2006 2:09:36 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07
"Justice Washington writes convincingly about both natural rights such as life, liberty and property. Remember, that's what you asked for "

No I asked for a ruling about the BOR and the states- there is only one Supreme Court ruling of course. As I said earlier several states did incorporate the BOR on their own.

Neither can you give any examples of people calling for a federal BOR to protect them from their states. There are thousands of quotes calling for it to protect them from the federal government.
Yet, you insist that is what they got because... well why? Because it's what they should have got?

You mentioned two federal cases:
Kelo
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1429187/posts
Thomas, J., dissenting..
" the Takings Clause did not even arguably limit state power until after the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment. See Note, The Public Use Limitation on Eminent Domain: An Advance Requiem, 58 Yale L. J. 599, 599—600, and nn. 3—4 (1949); Barron ex rel. Tiernan v. Mayor of Baltimore, 7 Pet. 243, 250—251 (1833) (holding the Takings Clause inapplicable to the States of its own force)."

"Not even arguably" now that's condescension! At least I grant you can argue. Neither Justice Thomas nor I are any fans of Stare Decisis- we both look to originalism for our views. Of course some people may consider him more authoritative.

and Corfield v. Coryell

SAENZ V. ROE "Thomas, J., dissenting...
When Congress gathered to debate the Fourteenth Amendment, members frequently, if not as a matter of course, appealed to Corfield, arguing that the Amendment was necessary to guarantee the fundamental rights that Justice Washington identified in his opinion..."
There's a very promising view of the P&I clause, based on Corfield, in that dissent BTW. You should read it to get something positive out of this bizarre exchage.

No one (except Madison- who's proposal was rejected) wanted to give the federal government more power over the people and the states with the BOR.
It didn't happen until hundreds of thousands of Americans were dead. As much as you and I complain here about the abuses the federal courts make today under the 14th it should be easy to understand why the people of 1789 rejected giving them that power over their rights.

516 posted on 01/18/2006 3:37:14 PM PST by mrsmith
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To: dirtboy
I state that as my opinion, dude.

But you didn't include that disclaimer in every sentence that you wrote. And that's the standard you applied to the Bill of Rights.

517 posted on 01/18/2006 3:37:49 PM PST by Mojave
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To: jwalsh07
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed

Federal juries in California use California residents as jurors.

Read a book.

518 posted on 01/18/2006 3:40:52 PM PST by Mojave
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To: jwalsh07; Tarkin

"--- the principle is a sound and fundamental one of the common law, that no man shall be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb for the same offence.
I am, however, inclined to the opinion, that the article in question does extend to all judicial tribunals in the United States, whether constituted by the Congress of the United States, or the states individually.

The provision is general in its nature, and unrestricted in its terms; and the sixth article of the constitution declares, that that constitution shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

These general and comprehensive expressions extend the provisions of the constitution of the United States to every article which is not confined, by the subject matter, to the national government, and is equally applicable to the states. ---"

Chief Justice Spencer New York



But - but, -- didn't we just have a couple of supposed lawyers claim ~absolutely~ that the entire world, all judges, James Madison and all constitutional scholars agree with them on this issue?

Is it possible that those two could be wrong? -- Heavens to Betsy...





519 posted on 01/18/2006 3:43:54 PM PST by don asmussen
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To: mrsmith
There's a very promising view of the P&I clause, based on Corfield, in that dissent BTW. You should read it to get something positive out of this bizarre exchage.

LOL, I found my way to Corfield through Saenz a while back. And now that you've read Corfield and Saenz you can go "rag on" Justice Thomas.

We're going nowhere and if we keep going that way we're gonna end up not too friendly.

So, unless you'd like to explain to me why "the people" would cede their rights to the states I'd say we should conclude our discussion.

520 posted on 01/18/2006 3:45:16 PM PST by jwalsh07
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