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GERMAN JET FIGHTER REPLICA HEADS OVERSEAS (US Gov. alarmed at "war weapon export")
AOPA Online | 1/13/06

Posted on 01/13/2006 8:14:42 AM PST by pabianice

A replica of one of Germany's greatest technological triumphs late in World War II, the Messerschmitt Me.262 fighter jet, has left American soil and reached Germany after U.S. State Department officials delayed it 60 days because they saw it as a weapon of war.

The four 30 mm replica cannons aboard lack a firing mechanism and still wouldn't fire if they had one. The aircraft now has arrived in Germany where it will be reassembled by the Messerschmitt Foundation aircraft collection and flown once again.

The replica project has been taken over by a group of retired Boeing engineers operating in Everett, Washington, as Legend Flyers. The aircraft are for sale by Air Assets International/Warbird Recovery in Colorado. Messerschmitt granted five additional serial numbers. Two have been built, with three to go.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Germany; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aviation; me262; messerschmitt; wwii
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To: agere_contra; Little Ray; Gamera977; af_vet_rr

Re: "The first ever jet combat was a Gloucester Meteor against one of these 262's"

From http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/korea50/k50-2.htm

After defeating the NKAF, UN air forces enjoyed a period of air supremacy until the arrival of the MiG-15 in November 1950. Initially flown in combat by Soviet pilots, and later by Chinese and North Koreans, the MiG-15 potentially threatened to wrest control of the air away from UN forces, as it seriously outclassed the best USAF fighter in Korea, the F-80C. Even so, F-80 pilots were able to turn inside the MiGs when attacked and scored some victories.

In fact, on November 8, 1950, in the first jet-to-jet combat in history, Lt. Russell Brown scored the first victory against a MiG-15.


161 posted on 01/13/2006 6:29:27 PM PST by Bender2 (Even dirty old robots need love!)
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To: AppyPappy

Re: "The cannons tended to kick the plane around a bit. At 500mph, you were possibly in for a flameout from the concussion of the 4 30mm's."

You are confusing the recoil of the 30mm of today's A-10 Warthog with the 30mm cannons used in World War Two. Where the A-10's 30mm will actually slow the plane down, the four 30mm connons in the Me-262 were way less powerful and had no where near the recoil of the A-10's GAU-8 Avenger.


162 posted on 01/13/2006 6:37:44 PM PST by Bender2 (Even dirty old robots need love!)
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To: Chode
"WOW!!! that's almost a leap of faith... "

Well...it IS catholic according to Webster,
I like Black Oak Arkansas, Bagpipes, and the local Jazz station as well.

163 posted on 01/13/2006 6:48:56 PM PST by norton (hip hop sucks)
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To: meandog
Re: "Both the 24 and 17 owe their illustrative successes to the MK-IV Norden bombsight--it allowed the strategic daylight bombing campaign, something that the Brit Lancasters were unable to accomplish; therefore carpet bombing at night after the pathfinders lit up the area, and causing the majority of the unnecessary collateral damage to Germany"

The accuracy of the Norden bombsight was highly overrated. In perfect conditions (No crosswinds, no tailwinds, no flak, etc...), it would drop bombs within 100 feet of the target, but no pickles in barrels from 25,000 feet as touted. It did the job, but it many times took hundreds and hundreds of bombers several attempts to do serious damage to any one German target.

Matter of fact, the Germans has stolen the plans of the Norden and has copies by 1939. The Luftwaffe High Command decided to fore go heavy bombers, so sealed their fate in that regard.

The Brits went for night time carpet bombing because the 1) did not believe in daylight strategic bombing and 2) area bombing would lower the German People's moral... Plus pay the Hun back for the Blitz.
164 posted on 01/13/2006 6:51:46 PM PST by Bender2 (Even dirty old robots need love!)
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To: Bender2
I stand corrected.

(But close?)

165 posted on 01/13/2006 6:52:06 PM PST by norton (answer: they both lost when it counted)
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To: Bender2

Russians, and to lesser extent Germans, designed around lower velocity, lower recoil, cannon. IIRC, the 75mm armed B-25 just about stopped cold (but briefly).


166 posted on 01/13/2006 6:55:55 PM PST by norton
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To: Bender2
"The Brits went for night time carpet bombing because the 1) did not believe in daylight strategic bombing and 2) area bombing would lower the German People's moral... Plus pay the Hun back for the Blitz."

Not to mention lowering casualties.

167 posted on 01/13/2006 6:57:52 PM PST by norton
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To: rvoitier; Robert A. Cook, PE
Re: rvoitier "I *think* its predecessor, the YF-12, was so fast that it could shoot itself down; after firing rounds the plane could catch up to the bullets. At least that's a story I heard."

Re: Robert A. Cook, PE "No, it was the F-101 Starfighter that DID shoot itself down. Y-12 couldn't mount the guns (no holes!) in the fuselage or wing leading edge because of the stealth panels and heat-resistance metal.

"Spanish flier I think, NATO certainly, dived into the combat range to strafe (I know, I know - F-101 strafing .. Maybe he thought he was in a A-10 or Stuka).

"While in a dive, he shot the minigun, pulled out (lower down of course but in exactly the same course) and pulled up into the bullets he had just shot."

First incident of this happened at China Lake Range in 1949. One of the first production F9F-2 Panthers was doing strafing runs firing its four 20mm cannons. On a steep dive, the plane actually overtook the slow muzzle velocity of the cannon shells and rammed them.

The surprise pilot managed to land and they found several of the shells embedded in the forward fuselage! The rounds had not exploded because they went in backwards...

It has been several years (40 or so) since I read this in Readers Digest and there was a website on the F9F Panther that also told the story, but I cannot find it...

168 posted on 01/13/2006 7:10:22 PM PST by Bender2 (Even dirty old robots need love!)
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To: norton
Re: I stand corrected. (But close?)

"Close" only count in horseshoes and nukes.

And, of course, when Texas A&M developed the Atomic Hand Grenade... ;^b)

PS: Most of my family are Aggies... Those that survived, that is!

169 posted on 01/13/2006 7:15:28 PM PST by Bender2 (Even dirty old robots need love!)
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To: pabianice

Wow. The Me-262 is a "weapon of war." I wonder how it would stand up against all those MiGs (15-29, inclusive) that any bozo could pick up for about fifteen bucks and a carton of Marlboros at the big Warsaw Pact yard sale in the mid-'90s.

I remember a guy in '96 or so who had a pretty good business going, buying MiGs from places like Romania that were ditching them at scrap-metal prices, fixing them up and reselling them. The -17 trainer was his favorite, because it had a good range, a little cargo space, and a back seat so he could take someone else along for a weekend getaway.

The -23 (or was it the -29?) was plenty exciting, but it was designed for mid-air refueling. It could only take off on afterburner, so he said -- jokingly or not, I'm not sure -- that part of his checklist was to declare a fuel emergency on takeoff.


170 posted on 01/13/2006 7:16:27 PM PST by ReignOfError
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To: ReignOfError

Re: "Wow. The Me-262 is a "weapon of war." I wonder how it would stand up against all those MiGs..."

Poorly. The Me-262 was vastly underpowered. The Mig 15 was superior to the 262.

But IMHO the 262 was much better looking!


171 posted on 01/13/2006 7:25:37 PM PST by Bender2 (Even dirty old robots need love!)
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To: Bender2
Re: "Wow. The Me-262 is a "weapon of war." I wonder how it would stand up against all those MiGs..."

Poorly. The Me-262 was vastly underpowered. The Mig 15 was superior to the 262.

Yeah. That was sarcasm. The basic point was that the State Department was worried about someone getting hold of a Me-262 as a "weapon of war", when a MiG in good condition is cheaper than a Studebaker in good condition.

For what it costs to build a Me-262 replica, I could buy a couple or three MiGs. Or go to Brazil and bribe someone at Embraer to rig up a jet with some some guns for me.

But IMHO the 262 was much better looking!

There are two reasons to fly a fighter: 1) to win a dogfight, and B) to get babes.

However slick the 262 looks, you'll eventually have to talk her back to your Buick. So I come back to the value of the second seat in the MiG-17T.

172 posted on 01/13/2006 7:45:39 PM PST by ReignOfError
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To: ReignOfError

Re: "However slick the 262 looks, you'll eventually have to talk her back to your Buick. So I come back to the value of the second seat in the MiG-17T."

Well, there is the two-seater Me-262-B-1c...

Stormbirds website http://www.stormbirds.com/project/general/profiles.htm says two ariframes are available!


173 posted on 01/13/2006 7:55:12 PM PST by Bender2 (Even dirty old robots need love!)
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To: ReignOfError

However slick the 262 looks, you'll eventually have to talk her back to your Buick. So I come back to the value of the second seat in the MiG-17T.

Now, that I'd like to see!

174 posted on 01/13/2006 8:32:05 PM PST by Sarajevo
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To: Sarajevo

You twisted ... um, individual. I wasn't talking about the conjugal act *in* the plane. I was just talking about flying off to somewhere tropical, with white sand and ovrproof rum where nature could take its course.


175 posted on 01/13/2006 8:37:28 PM PST by ReignOfError
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To: ReignOfError
With the range of a MiG-17T? That I'd like to see also! ;-)
176 posted on 01/13/2006 9:18:39 PM PST by Sarajevo
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To: pabianice

What are they using for engines?


177 posted on 01/13/2006 9:32:16 PM PST by nightdriver
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To: pabianice

Sorry, didn't read your link. GE CJ610s. Learjet engines. Whale of an improvement over the original Jumos, as they should be.


178 posted on 01/13/2006 9:46:11 PM PST by nightdriver
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To: Bender2
Kurt Tank finally got his Ta 183 into the air for the Argentina Air Force as the Pulqui II...

There was a great story about Tank that the NASM Docents who used to conduct the Saturday, reservation-required tours at the Silver Hill MD Garber Facility would tell relating to the museum's FW-190F (now on display at the Dulles/Udvar-Hazy Annex).

Apparently when the museum was restoring their -190 in the late 1970's they discovered these small red cylinders embedded along the edges of the canopy. They didn't have any idea what they were, so they called Tank. Tank told them "oh, ya ... those are the explosives for blowing off the canopy so the pilot can bail out".

Their next call was to the PG County bomb squad/EOD team. Several hours later, after having to evacuate the facility so the team could remove the still live charges, they were able to go back to work.
179 posted on 01/13/2006 11:23:03 PM PST by tanknetter
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To: 1rudeboy
I like the SR-71, but it has no weapons. The Vigilante, on the other hand, arrrrrrrrr.

Ah yes, the Vigilante ... with its linear bomb bay that was supposed to eject the weapons out backwards, from between the engine exhausts.

My recollection is that they had all sorts of problems with getting that to work right. Especially during cat shots when the payload (usually fuel tanks, since the A5A quickly evolved away from bombing to recce) had a nasty habit of breaking loose and spontaneously exiting the aircraft.
180 posted on 01/13/2006 11:27:31 PM PST by tanknetter
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