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Rockefeller researchers discover a biological clock within a clock
Eurekalert ^ | 1/12/06 | Joseph Bonner

Posted on 01/13/2006 7:25:46 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo

Just as a pocket watch requires a complex system of gears and springs to keep it ticking precisely, individual cells have a network of proteins and genes that maintain their own internal clock -- a 24-hour rhythm that, in humans, regulates metabolism, cell division, and hormone production, as well as the wake-sleep cycle. Studying this "circadian" rhythm in fruit flies, which have genes that are similar to our own, scientists have constructed a basic model of how the cellular timekeeper works. But now, a new report in this week's issue of the journal Science turns the old model on its head: By providing a glimpse into living cells, Rockefeller University researchers have uncovered a previously undetected clock inside the circadian clock. The scientists made the finding with a rarely used technique called FRET, which enabled them to follow circadian proteins over an extended period of time and watch the clock as it ticks away in a living cell.

[snip]

The movie allowed them to follow the interactions between Period and Timeless with a resolution never before possible. They discovered that, rather than randomly colliding, the two proteins bind together in the cytoplasm almost immediately and create what Young and Meyer refer to as an "interval timer." Then, six hours after coming together, the complexes rapidly break apart and the proteins move into the nucleus singly, all of them within minutes of each other. "Some switch is thrown at six hours that lets the complex explode. The proteins pop apart and roll into the nucleus," Young says. "Somehow, implanted within the system is a timer, formed by Period and Timeless, that counts off six hours. You have a clock within a clock." He notes that this precise timer shows how carefully orchestrated interactions between proteins really are.

(Excerpt) Read more at eurekalert.org ...


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: creationisminadress; crevo; crevolist; goddooditamen; idtalltales; intelligentdesign
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To: spunkets
No, it's an example of nonlinearity and feedback in chemical kinetics.

Ha! That tells me about the process that is there. But it says nothing about how it got there or what could have put it there. It is like telling me how the regulator of a watch works but expecting me to infer and believe it got there on its own from extraneous natural processes!
61 posted on 01/13/2006 12:30:33 PM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
If you find a pocket watch

Rev Paley's analogy has a life of its own. 205 years and counting.

62 posted on 01/13/2006 12:36:40 PM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: Virginia-American
One answer off the top of my head is that there is definite survival value in getting up before your predators (or prey) do.

It sure failed in my case!

How did the internal chemistry of the cell learn to arrange itself to accommodate this higher level external function? This complex function was yet another lucky random mutation?
63 posted on 01/13/2006 12:39:11 PM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: RightWhale
205 years and counting.

Not enough time for the pocket watch to evolve from the dinosaurs, eh? ;-P
64 posted on 01/13/2006 12:42:36 PM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
"it says nothing about how it got there or what could have put it there."

The systems arise naturally. The mechanism given is a natural one, not a designed system like your watch example.

" expecting me to infer and believe it got there on its own from extraneous natural processes!"

I don't expect anyone in particular to be able to know what it means, or understand it. A scientist will recognize and understand the simple physics presented there. It's basic. If someone is interested in the truth of the matter and doesn't understand it, he'll ask questions. It was sufficient to show one example of reletively simple chemistry that results in an oscillation around the equilibrium point, to disprove the need to claim, or infer design in such systems.

Natural processes are not extraneous.

65 posted on 01/13/2006 12:46:05 PM PST by spunkets
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
How did the internal chemistry of the cell learn to arrange itself to accommodate this higher level external function?

Natural selection.

This complex function was yet another lucky random mutation?

There's more to the process of evolution than just "lucky random mutation", although the variation introduced by mutations is one factor.

66 posted on 01/13/2006 12:52:19 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
Not enough time for the pocket watch to evolve from the dinosaurs, eh? ;-P

Watches do not reproduce, and therefore do not evolve.

This is one of the many reasons why the "watch" analogy is deeply flawed and fallacious as an analogy for the results of evolutionary processes.

67 posted on 01/13/2006 12:53:33 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: spunkets
The systems arise naturally. The mechanism given is a natural one, not a designed system like your watch example.

Showing that a system exists, as these examples do, does not say how it came to be or how it came to be where it is, by natural progression or by having been put there by a designer.

Since the scientific facts as presented do not show how it got there, your assertion that it is natural is unsupported by facts and is an assumption on your part, the very assumption you wish to prove.
68 posted on 01/13/2006 12:56:43 PM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
But it says nothing about how it got there or what could have put it there.

Evolution could have, easily. This particular mechanism is small-potatoes compared to the complexity of things which evolution has been observed to be capable of building.

It is like telling me how the regulator of a watch works but expecting me to infer and believe it got there on its own from extraneous natural processes!

Again, watches don't reproduce, therefore they don't evolve. Are you *intentionally* choosing a grossly misleading and fallacious analogy through dishonesty, or merely through ignorance?

69 posted on 01/13/2006 12:56:47 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon
Watches do not reproduce, and therefore do not evolve.

You have turned the analogy backward. The implication is that the watch could not be the product of evolution. Mules do not reproduce but are allegedly the product of evolution.

You are also making the same error as a previous poster. You are assuming evolution in your argument to prove evolution.
70 posted on 01/13/2006 1:03:14 PM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Oh wow, it's complicated, I can't imagine how it all evolved, there must be a God.


71 posted on 01/13/2006 1:05:02 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
Here's a paper on the molecular phylogeny of some clock genes in prokaryotes.

Abstract: Regulation of physiological functions with approximate daily periodicity, or circadian rhythms, is a characteristic feature of eukaryotes. Until recently, cyanobacteria were the only prokaryotes reported to possess circadian rhythmicity. It is controlled by a cluster of three genes: kaiA, kaiB, and kaiC. Using sequence data of 70 complete prokaryotic genomes from the various public depositories, we show here that the kai genes and their homologs have quite a different evolutionary history and occur in Archaea and Proteobacteria as well. Among the three genes, kaiC is evolutionarily the oldest, and kaiA is the youngest and likely evolved only in cyanobacteria. Our data suggest that the prokaryotic circadian pacemakers have evolved in parallel with the geological history of the earth, and that natural selection, multiple lateral transfers, and gene duplications and losses have been the major factors shaping their evolution.

72 posted on 01/13/2006 1:10:05 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
"your assertion that it is natural is unsupported by facts "

On the contrary, it exists and is consistent with physics and the rule that, if it can happen, it will. The existence of this clock is coded in the DNA and is part of the DNA code reading switch scheme. You don't seem to understand that design is not consistent with the appearence of this clock. It's ancient.

In order for it to be evidence for design, you must show it's not possible for this clock to arise from the laws of physics as the result of simple reactions in low energy path. Biochem. can show it does. Your wrist watch can't arise form simple reactions on a low energy path.

73 posted on 01/13/2006 1:14:07 PM PST by spunkets
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To: Dashing Dasher
Birthdays start out being fun. But too many of them will kill you..

I stole this from another Freeper's tagline - my apologies to him, but it is so true I couldn't resist.

74 posted on 01/13/2006 1:15:04 PM PST by The Sons of Liberty (Former SAC Trained Killer)
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To: Ichneumon
This particular mechanism is small-potatoes compared to the complexity of things which evolution has been observed to be capable of building.

Another repetition of the fallacy of assuming the conclusion. None of the things that exist have been shown how they got there or even how they could have gotten there. They are there and you merely assert evolution because you can't admit of any other possibility. But the lack of other possibilities in your mind is not evidence of your conclusion. That is the fallacy of the false dilemma.
75 posted on 01/13/2006 1:16:03 PM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: Right Wing Professor

Those are certainly some ancient clocks there.


76 posted on 01/13/2006 1:16:30 PM PST by spunkets
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

It is beyond them. They see Nature naked and it blinds them. Stunned by the nakedness they see all hows as "as is".


77 posted on 01/13/2006 1:20:31 PM PST by bvw
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To: Elsie
[referring to the SF books I listed above]

Isn't imagination wonderful!

Yes it is. I especially like it when it is constrained by logic and reality, as in the "hard" science fiction books I listed.

Unconstrained, we get schizoid word salad, the same passing as poetry, godawful fantasy, cacophonous music, junk science, and other things I find worthless.

Constrained, we get math, science, literature and poetry I can stand, etc.

"Form is liberating"

78 posted on 01/13/2006 1:22:34 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Right Wing Professor
Oh wow, it's complicated, I can't imagine how it all evolved, there must be a God.

I stop people who make that argument. It is the same fallacy of the false dilemma that evolutionists make when they assume that everything must have a natural cause and therefore there is no alternative to some kind of evolution.

I have not seen enough evidence to distinguish the two theories. Therefore I argue against the religious certitude exhibited by both camps.
79 posted on 01/13/2006 1:28:37 PM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
" Another repetition of the fallacy of assuming the conclusion."

In science one starts with a hypothesis and then looks for evidence to support it, or refute it. There is no need to choose in particular which logical state(T/F) one begins with.

"you merely assert evolution because you can't admit of any other possibility."

It is not true that other possibilities are ignored and rejected on their face. Your claims for design are rejected, because it is not consistent with the physics. Each and every process in nature in the theory of evolution is and can be shown to be the result of reactions following a possible low energy path.

80 posted on 01/13/2006 1:30:08 PM PST by spunkets
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