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California high school sued over 'intelligent design' class (Not even Philosphy Class?)
AP via SJ M.News ^ | 11 Jan 06 | JULIANA BARBASSA

Posted on 01/10/2006 6:29:50 PM PST by gobucks

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To: jec41

The description does not seem to mis-represent the content.

I'm not sure where it stands in relation to the Lemon criteria.


41 posted on 01/10/2006 7:31:01 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: Coyoteman
I don't care whether it's balanced or not, just so long as that it's an ELECTIVE. If the public schools want to offer a class in reincarnation Hindu-style, that's okay with me as long as it's a choice and it's not being taught as a science.

But the required courses must teach science as we know it, including evolution. They should acknowledge in those classes that many people disagree with it. That's only fair.

But they don't have to teach Scientology in a science class to be fair and balanced. In philosophy, you can teach just about anything you want and still get paid for it.

42 posted on 01/10/2006 7:31:24 PM PST by Dog Gone
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To: Coyoteman
You apply hard sciences to the study, however the results of archeology(*) are subjective classifcations -- soft science.

.

.

(*) Spelled either way archeology or archaeology this is a greek root word with roman letters approxiamting the greek spelling.

43 posted on 01/10/2006 7:33:04 PM PST by bvw
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To: Coyoteman
Is it a balanced class or religious indoctrination?

I'm confident that it is at least as balanced as the Dover science classrooms.

44 posted on 01/10/2006 7:33:28 PM PST by connectthedots
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To: Mamzelle
Well, it's hard because there are so few jobs in archeology.

Thus the reason I went into engineering. I did take several archeology classes though. Enjoyed the classes almost as much as asking the professors questions they couldn't answer about evolution and some of the fields analysis methods. To my surprise they didn't get offended!

45 posted on 01/10/2006 7:35:14 PM PST by Down South P.E. (Be a Berean Acts 17:11)
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To: Coyoteman
And you find truth and reality, if not in science, where?

We find truth and reality in the world around us. We know there is a force that keeps us all on the Earth and we call it gravity. There are theories about what causes gravity and how it can be calculated but it exists regardless of whether we have a theory about it.

Theories can never be proven because they make basic assumptions in order to accomplish the science. If these assumptions are correct, the theory may be correct, but we will never know for sure.

An example in evolution is that archeologists/evolutionists make the assumption that if we find a fossil in a certain aged rock, and find one similar to it but not exactly like it in a subsequent rock, that based on certain criteria one may have evolved from the other. The truth and reality is that we have two fossils. The theory is how they relate to each other.

Later down the road, the genetics crowd may say the genome shows a different evolutionary tree than the morphology and decide the interpretation from the fossil evidence is wrong.

The two fossils still exist, but the theory of what can be deduced from those fossils has changed.

Here is a great short piece on the Philosophy of Science that covers its evolution through history.

The Nature and Philosopy of Science
46 posted on 01/10/2006 7:36:14 PM PST by microgood
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To: Dog Gone
Those who think a scientific theory means a scientific guess or a scientific fantasy are either simply ignorant of the term as used in the scientific community or don't care and simply want to prey upon other people's ignorance.

Nope, in our dumbed down culture the word theory, thru misuse, has lost its meaning and for the masses means what someone thinks regardless of testing or examination. Constant misuse of a word will eventually render it useless if there are so many connotations that it loses it's meaning for the masses. Ask 10 different people not schooled in theory for the definition of theory and you will get 10 different answers or opinions. Debate with such is useless because for every proof there will be the mean less What IF?
47 posted on 01/10/2006 7:45:43 PM PST by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: bvw
You apply hard sciences to the study, however the results of archeology(*) are subjective classifcations -- soft science.

There are more numbers and less subjectivity in archaeology nowadays than in the past.

The physical sciences are contributing a lot of hard data; everything from radiocarbon dating to x-ray fluorescence, remote sensing, and a host of other techniques. Statistics are common, when once they were rare.

Archaeologists are working with soil scientists and geologists to figure out stratigraphy, and with palynologists and other experts to figure out past environments.

Of course, interpretation of hard data is still subjective, but that's the same as in many other sciences.

But, like other sciences, everything is peer-reviewed, sooner or later, and bad science gets shown the exit.

48 posted on 01/10/2006 7:46:07 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Purple Mountains Maj

PurplePing


49 posted on 01/10/2006 7:47:24 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: Coyoteman
And you find truth and reality, if not in science, where?

Cogito ergo sum-Renee Descartes

50 posted on 01/10/2006 7:50:37 PM PST by 101st-Eagle
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To: microgood

We find truth and reality in the world around us. We know there is a force that keeps us all on the Earth and we call it gravity. There are theories about what causes gravity and how it can be calculated but it exists regardless of whether we have a theory about it.

Atomic bombs were not all around us. A theory was proposed and the bomb was developed.


51 posted on 01/10/2006 7:56:24 PM PST by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: microgood
I agree with your essay; that's about the best thing I have seen you post.

But the question I asked, responding to your previous post, involved truth and reality. You wrote:

Scientists should have to take Philosopy of Science just so they won't be like the current generation which equate theory with actual truth or reality.

I think scientists are well aware of what theory is, in relation to "actual truth or reality." I have even posted the definitions on these threads--often--so that most people here are aware of what scientists consider a theory to be.

But if you would settle for scientists taking a class in the history and methods of science, I could certainly not argue with that. I think everyone should have some exposure to those subjects.

But philosophy? Please, we scientists have our standards!

52 posted on 01/10/2006 7:56:38 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: gobucks

What about history class? We can't teach that there was a time when people didn't believe in evolution.


53 posted on 01/10/2006 7:58:13 PM PST by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: 101st-Eagle
Renee Descartes

The same Renee Descartes who argued both the six ontological proofs for the existence of God and the six ontological proofs against the existence of God. What then was his ending reality.
54 posted on 01/10/2006 8:07:10 PM PST by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: Down South P.E.

What preconceptions caused you to expect them to be offended?


55 posted on 01/10/2006 8:09:29 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: connectthedots; PatrickHenry; gobucks
I'm certainly glad the FReeper evolutionists have clearly stated that discussing ID in a philosophy class is acceptable. I expect they will be along shortly in support of the school.

And I expect you'll misunderstand the answers, as you so often do.

As I've previously stated, "ID" would be acceptable in a philosophy class, *IF* it is covered in the same manner as other philosophies. If, however, it's just brought into class in the way it usually is -- as a Trojan horse for advocating creationism under a different name -- then it would again be found unconstitutional for the same reason the Dover attempt was.

It's the *content* of the material, not whether there's a "science" or "philosophy" sign hanging over the classroom, which determines whether the teacher or schoolboard is trying to push or protect a specific religion or religious view.

From the above article, it sounds as if the content of the "philosophy" class is just the Dover twaddle transplanted into a different classroom down the hall. In fact, if the article is accurate, this example seems to have an even *more* blatantly explicit religious content than the Dover case.

As for teaching "ID" on just its merits as philosophy, I have previously written:

But I did not say ID taught as "Science". I said ID taught as "Philosophy." I thought you didn't have a problem with a joint science-philosophy class.

Isn't that going to be a mighty short philosophy segment? Other than stating, "it's in concept possible that some unspecified portion of the Universe or its contents were constructed at some unspecified time by some unspecified intelligence", exactly what else *is* there to the "philosophy of ID" (especially after it's divorced from theology, as the IDers studiously assert)?

As paper-thin as the "science" of ID is, the "philosophy" of it is even more limited in scope.


56 posted on 01/10/2006 8:17:12 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: seastay
People can describe Evolution as they like, but all I know is the guys in college who were taking chemistry, physics and engineering spent a whole lot more time studying One doesn't even need to take an evolution class to get a degree in Biology.

But one does need to take genetics, chemictry and physics.

57 posted on 01/10/2006 8:21:02 PM PST by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: seastay
People can describe Evolution as they like, but all I know is the guys in college who were taking chemistry, physics and engineering spent a whole lot more time studying

Yes. Hard sciences.

One doesn't even need to take an evolution class to get a degree in Biology.

But one does need to take genetics, chemictry and physics.

58 posted on 01/10/2006 8:21:13 PM PST by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: Coyoteman
(He may have meant anthropology, a word easy to cofuse with archeology, and clearly much softer.)

My own perspective is that ALL historical sciences (and philosophies) need to be held with greater humility. Past events are unable to be held to current observations--and repitition--things I recall from Jr. High as being required in classic scientific method. We can make reasoned theories for historic (or prehistoric) events but since those events cannot be observed--EVERYONE needs to be less dogmatic and certain of their particular explanation of things that happened a very long time ago.

This is why physics or chemistry...where direct contemporary observations and repetition of experiments seem to be more reliable, "hard" sciences, where sociology, physchology, anthropology or any investigation of things historical have different standards of proof.

The scientists at DuPont definitely have much higher (and different) standard of proof than the best law-court in the world--yet both are trying to discern truth from evidence, one about chemistry the other about recent past human history.

59 posted on 01/10/2006 8:21:43 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: jec41

He retreated to a Monadastery.


60 posted on 01/10/2006 8:24:25 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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