90 years later, Peru battles Yale over Incan artifacts

The Christian Science Monitor ^ | 1/10/06 | Danna Harman

[Publius6961]

It's their heritage not Yale's. The Brits and the rest should be turning everything back to the Egyptians and Greeks. It's not finders keepers.

Why is it that those who know the least say it the loudest?
Actually, in all instances had the locals maintained control of their "priceless" heritage, they would have all disappeared. The dummy response to this is "so what it's theirs". At least I agree with this last part.

We are talking curiosities here; the nexus between the originators and the current activists is tenuous at best and if it makes Yale or anyone else feel good to send the stuff back, good for them.
Other than curiosity value, and the providing a lot of "jobs" to the otherwise unemployable, what good is it?

[Recon Dad]

Your reasoning is directly out of an era when the colonial powers ran around the world digging up and taking anything they wanted. For the most part there were very little controls in the countries at question at the time these artifacts were found.
What about the archaeologists of today? Using your logic they should still be carrying off their loot, if the governments of today are not worthy of receiving the returned artifacts of the past.
Displaying artifacts in London or Hartford or displaying in Giza or Peru I believe the latter is the proper location venue.

[Republicanprofessor]

On the Porch of the Maidens, the columns (carytids) have been taken to the museum in Athens because otherwise they were becoming dust. Some of the details have been lost, as you can see in this image. I believe the maiden on the corner may still be original, and you can see how her face and the drapery are wearing away. The figure in the back right is a copy and is not nearly as subtly done (as can be seen in the back of her drapery).

Yes, the Greek protected these works, but they waited until nearly 200 years after Lord Elgin "took" the other works to England. The acid rain in Athens is eating the works that do remain.

[Publius6961]

BUMP!

[GladesGuru]

Dear Republicanprofessor,

At the risk of being seen as less than a "compassionate Conservative" I think the following should be noted:

1. The Peruvian whiner, and the lawyers behind him, should be banned from the USA permanently for Liberal Whining.

2. That should be a hanging offense.

3. His line is the distilled quintessence of Liberalism (and by extension, of Liberals) claiming something which they didn't make or own: ""This is our patrimony. This is everything to us - proof that even though today we are poor, our ancestors lived great and proud, -".

4. Proud of what, killing and eating their neighbors and political enemies?

5. These Indians were, after all, stone age savages and cannibals as well.

6. It is true that they did do good stone masonry, but they were also a totalitarian society of unimaginable brutality and cruelty.

7. Returning artifacts to such "peoples" often means the loss of them due to the endemic theft/corruption rampant in the Turd World Community.

8. When not stolen, such artifacts are often not on display for public viewing.

9. The "repatriation" movement is another part of the Communism Lite attempt to discredit, and or disparage the advanced Western nations in general and the United States in particular.

10. Adorno, and his other two stooges at the Frankfurt Institute would be happy to see how 'critical theory' has succeeded.

Summary: A. Keep the artifacts.
B. Ignore such Turd World whiners.
C. Shoot any lawyer involved in such a suit.

[Publius6961]

I cannot disagree with anything you say.

I am totally comfortable with having these stone age civilizations dig up, destroy, ignore, or shoot their "heritage" into orbit.

Just let them do it without our help. Or the help of "professional" hobbyists.

[LexBaird]

I was on the Acropolis a few years ago, funny the other artifacts there weren't dust.

The reason the Parthenon is in such a ruin as it is, is because the occupying Turks used the place as a powder magazine, and it blew up during a battle with the Venetians in the late 1600's..

[Varda]

Yes the maidens in the museum were degraded and are being preserved by the Greeks. The Caryatids were moved to the museum in the 70's. I had the impression none are still left to the elements. As they are, they are still beautiful. They are not dust and at this point preservation is no excuse for theft.

As an aside, the British Museums treatment of its Egyptian artifacts is abominable. Priceless artifacts are left out for countless museum goers to rub their grubby fingers over them. I say send them back.

[Varda]

Yes and the Turks are the reason Lord Elgin was able to loot the Acropolis. He got his authorization from them.

[antiRepublicrat]

It's their heritage not Yale's. The Brits and the rest should be turning everything back to the Egyptians and Greeks. It's not finders keepers.

In many cases, such as this one, permission was specifically given by the then-current government to take the items. Other items, like Cleopatra's Needles, were actually gifts.

[Casloy]

Despite the legal merits of this case, Yale would be wise to just give them back.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks Republicanprofessor for the ping and the kind remarks. I'm going to add this one to the catalog, but won't ping, because we've had a topic just like this, or at least, I think we did. I'd have to go look, and I'm trying my new rule, limit to 1 hour per day on the computer. ;')

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[Recon Dad]

What scientific purpose is served at this point in time to not returning artifacts? The Egyptians, Greeks and Peruvians are capable of acting as curator as well as we are.
Archeology studies past human behavior through the examination of material remains of previous human societies. It doesn't mean cart it away from the home country.
Most of the archaelogists of the early 20th century and late 19th were not shinning examples of scientific discretion when it came to preserving these artifacts. Probably as much was destroyed in their search as was found.

You could argue that these early archaelogists were just foreign grave robbers.

[Physicist]

It's their heritage not Yale's. The Brits and the rest should be turning everything back to the Egyptians and Greeks. It's not finders keepers.

If South Africa demanded all its gold and diamonds back, on the grounds that the stuff happened to be under their land when their people first moved into the place, and that it therefore constitutes their heritage, would you surrender yours?

[Smokin' Joe]

Just tell them "Nope. Can't have it. It's may-an." (as in 'not yours')

Seriously, does this mean I have to give back the arrowheads I found as a kid?

After all, that seems to be the direction of all this.

Find a treasure, or just a relic, and there is a long line waiting to claim it.

I can't think of a greater disincentive to looking.

Something similar has happened with fossils already.

These smaller opportunities are the sparks which ignite the passion for geology, archaeology, paleontology, etc. at an early age, and without that the fields will suffer.

[antiRepublicrat]

What scientific purpose is served at this point in time to not returning artifacts?

I don't know, but the stuff's legally theirs, and originating countries now want to welch on deals they made, usually to their profit at the time. You have to convince a museum that gets prestige and makes money off the exhibition of this stuff to give it up.

Most of the archaelogists of the early 20th century and late 19th were not shinning examples of scientific discretion when it came to preserving these artifacts.

I'm only talking about when they had legal permission.

[LexBaird]

Yes and the Turks are the reason Lord Elgin was able to loot the Acropolis. He got his authorization from them.

Too bad Elgin didn't take the giant stone buddhas from Afghanistan.

[GladesGuru]

Aren't you suggesting cowering before a Turd World whiner? This suggestion of yours seems to have an aura of PC submission to it. Is that deliberate? If so, might I inquire as to your reasoning?

[GladesGuru]

I am underwhelmed with your logic. Give back to the Turd World artifacts which they will not protect/preserve?

As ideas go, that isn't. A statement of PC speak, yes - a viable idea regarding peservation of artifacts, no.