Posted on 01/10/2006 1:49:22 AM PST by nickcarraway
SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.
'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."
If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.
Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment … why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"
And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."
The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.
I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.
In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,
but how many can really be blamed on feminism?
Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.
On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."
My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.
On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.
Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.
Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.
Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences — engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.
With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."
By stereotyping and jumping to some ridiculous conclusions about people you really don't know from Adam, you mean?
Thanks for a good laugh.
I have another option, I can question it..... your posts have a reply link button on them because it's a ~forum~.
"They simply created an alternative market where good men are hard to find."
Blameshifting?
I don't disagree. However, where we most like differ is that I'd place the same cutoff for fatherhood. Just because a man can biologically father a child in old age doesn't mean he should.
I am sure that someone who has all the kids they want would be thrilled with the right older woman (as you are) but most men looking to marry are looking for family and children.
I have no idea where that came from. I wanted children, and 17 days before our first anniversery my wife gave birth to my son. Some 18 months later, my daughter was born. Plus, my wife had a 12 year old daughter and a 10 year old son when we married. I've had all the children that I can handle.
That's why the women in the 30 to 40 age range are getting so desparate. Men in the 30 to 40 age range can easily marry someone in the 20 to 30 range who still has plenty of child bearing years left. So younger wins out
I think you exagerate the attractiveness of 40 year old men in the eyes of 20 something females. While it might be slightly more common than the converse, age spreads over a decade are far from common. As a 42 year old male, I'm acutely aware that to 20 somethings I'm well into geezer-land.
You can question all you want
That doesn't mean I'll answer your snide sarcastic question.
If you want dialogue then don't try to put your snide little remarks into your response.
Funny you should say that. I realized after posting that of the handful of men I was thinking about, 2 are married to Koreans and 2 more are single to this day.
Diplomacy was never my strong suit.
And I described the rather harsh methods men had used to make sure women remain enslaved as second class citizens in those countries. While I can see that women there might find almost ~anyone~ better than life under those societies, I wondered how you intend to keep those fear-based obedient women in line in a country that is free.
Excellent post. I don't have any quibbles with it, except perhaps the phrasing of the "feminist movement... going home" when a great deal of the original fight was to earn a meaningful place in the workforce. :)
No apology necessary.
That essay was a well written, thoughtful contribution to this topic.
Kudos !
You mean Utah? :)
Not every man is looking to have children. There are actually men out there who don't want them even more than women.
now that we are down to the brass tacks.. Where did you see me say that I would entertain marrying a woman from either Saudi Arabia or Japan?
What I said (and I say again)
IF (and that's a huge IF), I ever get married again, the woman would be from a traditional society.
That is what I said.
It still doesn't solve the issue of what will happen when she becomes Americanized. ;-D
HA - Just a poorly worded sentence then. The 'feminist movement' needs to close their activist office and either go home or get real jobs, then... is what I meant. :~D
And many women don't really need are want male companionship, not when they have mothers, sisters, girlfriends etc.
OK, sex is what you may be missing, but that can be fixed also.
The genders have to want to be together. Need can be transient and simple to fix.
It's not my fault those countries were listed in your post.
lol no not Utah.
Back home in my native Georgia tho is looking better.
I have to say I see delusion and unrealistic expectations rampant in both genders.
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